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Below you will find the video-taped version of this debate, followed by text transcript of the content of the debate.
Quran & Bible in the light of Science - Zakir Naik vs William Campbell-Part 1 (1 0f 10)
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Dr Zakir Naik Vs Dr. William Campbell Part 4 ( 6 of 6 )
The following is the text version of this debate:
The Qur'an and the Bible
in the light of Science
Dr Zakir Naik and Dr. William Campbell
(Sabeel Ahmed) Auzubillahi Minash Shaitanir Rajeem, Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim..…(Arabic)…In the Name of Allah the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful. Dr. William Campbell, Dr. Zakir Naik, Dr. Mazachis, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Dr. Samuel Nauman and Mr. Sam Shamoon, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen, As Salaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatahu… Peace and Blessings of Almighty Allah be upon all of you. On behalf of the organizers… the Islamic Circle of North America, I, Syed Sabeel Ahmed, welcome all of you to this unique event … a dialogue on the topic – ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of Science.’ Again on behalf of Dr. Campbell, Dr. Zakir Naik, Islamic Circle of North America, this dialogue is being held in a spirit of friendship, understanding each other’s view points. A brief introduction of ICNA’s activities - Islamic Circle of North America. The goals of Islamic Circle of North America, are to motivate Muslims to perform their duty of being witnesses unto mankind, offering educational training opportunities to increase the Islamic knowledge and to enhance the character. ICNA is also active in opposing immorality and oppression of all forms, supporting efforts for socio-economic justice, civil liberties in the society, strengthening the bond of humanity, by serving all those in the need, anywhere in the world, with special focus on our neighborhood across North America. For today's unique dialogue, the two main moderators are Dr. Mohammed Naik representing Dr. Zakir Naik, and Dr. Samuel Naaman representing Dr. William Campbell.It is my duty to ensure a fair and proper conduct of this meeting - therefore we request our speakers as well as the audience, to maintain due decorum for a healthy dialogue.With that, I would request Dr. Samuel Naaman to give the introduction of Dr. William Campbell - Assalamu Alaikum.
(Samuel Naaman) Thank you brother Sabeel Ahmed - It is a pleasure and honour to be here with you this evening. And first of all, I myself with a group of our brothers and sisters from the Christian background, really like to thank the Islamic Circle of North America, and the local people who have organized this unique event. They have done a great job - they have worked very hard. And now we have come to the last moment, to be here. Dr. William Campbell did his medical work, in Cleveland Ohio at Casewestren Reserve University. He worked for twenty years in Morocco, where he learnt Arabic. After 7 years in Tunesia, he wrote his book, answering Dr. Maurice Bucaille. He is a convinced Christian, who likes to explain the Injeel or the Gospel, to everyone. At age 74, Dr. Campbell is retired with 10 grandchildren. And we are really thankful, and we are really happy to be with you tonight - Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) On behalf of the Islamic Research Foundation, I Dr. Mohammed Naik am pleased to be amongst you all along with Dr. Zakir. It is a pleasure to be here for this unique event, and have the good pleasure of having scholars like Dr.William Campbell, Dr. Jamal Badawi, Dr. Mazzacus, as well as my co-colleague Brother, Dr. Samuel Naaman, here with us. I on behalf of Brother Samuel and myself, present the format for the dialogue. The format as agreed and decided fair, by both our speakers is, Dr. William Campbell would first address you for 55 minutes on the topic - ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of Science.’ Then Dr. Zakir Naik at the far end, would make his presentation for 55 minutes on the same topic. This would be followed by a response session, in the which Dr. Campbell would respond to the matter presented by Dr. Zakir for 25 minutes, followed by Dr. Zakir too responding for 25 minutes, to the matter presented by Dr. Campbell. Lastly, we would have the open Question and Answers session, in which the audience may pose questions to each speaker alternately, on the question mikes provided in the auditorium. After the mikes-questions are handled, we would allow questions on index cards to be provided by volunteers in aisles, and in the order selected at random, by the coordinators and the advisors, to each of the speakers. Ladies and gentlemen... to address you, today… Dr. William Campbell.
(Dr. William Campbell) Greetings to Dr. Naik, who came… almost surely came the farthest. Greetings to Sabeel Ahmed, and Mohammed Naik, and greetings to the organising committee. Calling this... ‘The ultimate dialogue’ – It is a bit of an exaggeration - But it is good advertising. And greetings to you the audience. I would like to also bring greetings in the name of Yehowah or better known as Jehowah the great Creator God, who loves us. I wish to start by speaking about words. Tonight we are going to speak about the words of the Bible, and the words of the Qur’an. The scholars of modern linguistics tell us...‘A word, a phrase or sentence means, what it meant to the speaker, and the person or crowd of people listening. In the case of the Qur’an, what it meant to Mohammed, and those listening to him. In the case of the Bible, what it meant to Moses or Jesus, or those listening to them. To check this we have the context of all the usage in the Bible or the Qur’an. In addition, there is the poetry and letters of that century - For the Gospel, the first century A.D... for the Qur’an the 1st century of the Hijra. If we are going to follow the truth, we may not make up new meanings. If we are seriously after truth, there are no permissible lies. Here is an example of what I am taking about - We can have the first slide here. This is talking about two dictionaries, that I have in my home - One from 1951 and 1991. In these two dictionaries, the first meaning ‘pig’... ‘a young swine of either sex’ - is the same. The second meaning... ‘any swine or hog’, ‘any wild or domestic swine’ - It is the same. Third... ‘the flesh of swine… pork’ - it is the same. Then the meaning of... ‘person or animals of piggish habits’ - It is the same... ‘A person who is gluttonous.’ And down here, pouring metal into a pit, for pig iron, is the same. But over here, is a new meaning. A police officer… we call police officers ‘pigs.’ All right the question is – ‘In the Torah, it says you cannot eat pigs. Or can I turn around and say… ‘O yes! That means police officers - You cannot eat police officers.’ Off course not. In the Qur’an, Allah says… ‘You cannot eat pigs.’ Can I translate it… ‘Cannot eat police officers ?’ No! it is wrong - It would be stupid - It would be lying actually. Mohammed did not mean… ‘police officers’ - Moses did not mean… ‘police officers.’ We may not have any new meanings. We must use the meanings known in the first century A.D. for the Bible or that is for the Gospel, and the first century of the Hijra, for the Qur’an. Now let us look at what the Qur’an is going… says about ‘Embryology.’ Oh sorry! Got the wrong thing. It is been said that the idea of the embryo developing through stages, is a modern one - And the Qur’an is anticipating modern embryology, by depicting different stages. In his pamphlet entitled… ‘Highlights of human Embryology’ by Keith Moore - Dr. Moore claims… ‘The realization of the embryo develops in stages in the uterus was not discussed to illustrate it, until the 15th century.’ We will weigh this claim by considering the meaning of the Arabic words used by the Qur’an. And secondly, by examining the historical situation leading upto, and surrounding the Qur’an. We will start by looking at the main words using the word ‘Alaqa’ - main verses. The Arabic word ‘Alaqa’ in the singular, or ‘Alaq’ as the collective plural, is used six times. In the Surah of ‘The Resurrection’, ‘AL-Qayamat’, 75 : 35 to 39, we read… ‘Was he man, not a drop of sperm ejaculated, then he became ‘Alaqa’, and God shaped and formed, and made of him a pair – the male and the female.’ In the Surah of ‘The Believer’ – Al Momin, 40:67, it says… ‘He it is who created you from dust, then from a sperm drop, then from a leech like clot - ‘Alaqa.’ Then brings you forth as a child, that perhaps you may understand. In the Surah of ‘The Pilgrimage’ – Al-Hajj, 22:5, it says… ‘O mankind! If you have doubt about the resurrection, consider that we have created you from dust. Then from a drop of seed, then from a clot ‘Alaqa’, then from a little lump of flesh, shapely and shapeless. And finally the following statement is there in the Surah of ‘The Believers’, Al-Mominun, 23:12 to 14, which reads… ‘Verily, We created man from a product of wet earth, then placed him as a drop of seed, in a safe lodging. Then We fashioned the drop of clot - ‘Alaqa’, and of the clot, We fashioned a lump, and of the lump We fashioned bones, and We clothed the bones with meat. Then We produced it as another creation. And here you have the stages according to the Qur’an… ‘Nutfa’ … ‘sperm’, ‘Alaqa’ … ‘clot’, ‘Mudgha’ … ‘piece of meat’, ‘Azaam’ … ‘bones’, and the fifth stage – ‘dressing the bones with muscles. Over the last hundred plus years, this word ‘Alaqa’, has been translated as follows. There is ten translations here - I am not going to read them all. 3 are in French, - (French), (French), (French), or a ‘clot of blood’, 3 versions… 5 versions are English, where it is either ‘clot’ or ‘a leech like clot’, 1 version is in Indonesian, at the bottom there… ‘Siganpaudara’, ‘lump clot’, or ‘a clot of blood’ and the last one is Parsi – ‘Khunbasfa’ … ‘a clot of blood’. As every reader who has studied human reproduction would realize, there is no stage, as a ‘clot’, during the formation of a fetus. So this is a very major scientific problem. In the dictionary it is a word, and the only meanings given for ‘Alaqa’ in this feminine singular, are ‘clot’ and ‘leech’ - And in North Africa, both of these meanings are still used. Many patients have come to me to ask for a clot to be removed from their throat, … and many women have come to me and told me their period did not come. When I say… ‘I am sorry, I cannot give you medicine to bring your period, because I believe that is a baby.’ The will say ‘Mazaaltem’- It is still blood.’ So they were understanding these ideas of the Qur’an. Lastly we must consider the first verses which came to Mohammed, in Mecca. These are found in the 96th Surah called ‘Alaqa’ … ‘Clots’ - from the very word, that we are studying. In 96: 1, 2, we … read… ‘Proclaim in the name of your Lord, who created.’ Created man from ‘Alaq’. Here the word is in the collective form. This form of the word can have other meanings, because ‘Alaq’ is also the derived verbal noun of the word ‘Alaqa’. The verbal noun usually corresponds to ‘dejerant’, in English as in a sense … ‘Swimming is fun’. Therefore we could expect it to mean hanging or clinging or adhering. But the ten translators listed above have all used ‘clot’ or ‘congealed blood’ in this verse too. In spite of the number and qualifications of these translators who used the word ‘clot’, the French Doctor, Maurice Bucaille has sharp words for them. He writes … ‘What is more likely to mislead the enquiring reader, is once again the problem of vocabulary?’ The majority of translations describe - for example, man’s formation … from a blood clot. A statement of this kind is totally unacceptable to Scientists specialising in the field. This shows how great the importance of an association, between linguistic and scientific knowledge is, when it comes to grasping the meaning of Qur’anic statements, on reproduction. Put in other words, Bucaille is saying …‘No body has translated the Qur’an correctly, until I Dr. Bucaille came along.’ How does Dr. Bucaille think that it should be translated? He proposes that instead of ‘clot’, the word ‘Alaqa’ should be translated as, ‘something which clings’, which would refer to the fetus being attached to the uterus through the placenta. But as all you ladies who have been pregnant now, the thing which clings, does not stop its clinging to become chewed meat. It keeps on being a thing which clings, which is attached by the placenta for 8 and a half months. Thirdly, these verses say that…‘The chewed meat becomes bones, and then the bones are covered with muscles. They give the impression that first the skeleton is formed and then it is clothed with flesh - And Dr. Bucaille knows perfectly well, that this is not true. The muscles and the cartilage precusses of the bones, start forming from the solmite at the same time. At the end of the 8th week, there are only a few centers of calcification started - But the fetus is already able to make muscular movement. In a personal letter from Dr. T.W. Sadler, who is associate Professor in Embryo Anatomy, and the author of ‘Langman’s Medical Embryology’, Dr. Sadler states … ‘At the eight week post perozation, the ribs would be cartilaginous … not bones - And muscles will be present’. Also at this time, calcification will just begin. Muscles would be capable of some movement at 8 weeks. It is always better to have two witnesses, so we shall see what Dr. Keith Moore has to say about the development of bones and muscles, in his book ‘The Developing Human’. Extracted from the Chapters 15 and 17, we find the following information: The skeletal system develops from mesoderm. The limb muscles develop in the limb buds that are derived from this somatic mesoderm. We see that here on this slide. It is difficult perhaps to see, but there is the limb bud, and then here there is just the little bit of cartilage with the muscles around. Here there is more cartilage, and this is the whole bud. The bones are formed and in the form of bones, but it is all cartilage - No bones yet. The second slide shows how it forms. Here is the… here is the cartilage. Though it is just the bone it looks like cartilage, and then it starts to have some calcium deposited, and then it starts to have calcification, and bone formed. As the bone marrow is formed … sorry, I want to go back to this. As the bone marrow is formed, mild blast develop a large muscle mass in each limb bud, separating into extensive reflexive muscles. In other words, the limb muscles develops simultaneously, for the mezincaine surrounding the developing bones. So there is the cartilage, and here are the muscles developing around the cartilage. During a personal conversation with Dr. Moore, I showed him Dr. Salder’s statement, and he agreed that it was absolutely valid. Conclusion: Dr. Salder and Dr. Moore agree - There is no time when calcified bones have been formed, and then the muscles are placed around them. The muscles are there, several weeks before there are calcified bones, rather than being added around previously formed bones, as the Qur’an states. The Qur’an is in complete error here. The problems are far from being solved. Let us return to the ‘Alaqa’ - Dr. Moore also has a suggestion. He says… ‘Another Verse, in the Qur’an refers to the leech like appearance, and the chewed like stages of human development’. From this definition, Dr. Moore has gone ahead to propose…‘There are 23-30 day ------ a 23 day embryo – 3 millimeters long - that is an 8th of an inch. I can hardly put my fingers there lose together without touching. This is stage 10, shown on the inside cover of Moore’s book. This is the beginning, and here is the sperm entering the egg - So that is stage 1. Comes down here to stage 6th in the second week. And here is the 3rd week. And there is the first stage 10, and here is day 23, and this is what Dr. Moore wants to say… ‘looks like a leech’. If we could look further though, and look at the X-Ray… Here is day 22 and the back bone is still open. And when we look at day 23 the back bone is open there, and it is open there, and the head is wide open - It does not look like a leech at all. And if you keep on this is the diagram of it -The head is open, the nogstral neurropore, and finally this diagram shows there is the 20 day embryo. It is got a yolk sac, it is got an umbilicus - It does not look like a leech at all. The problem… the great problem with these two definitions for the word ‘Alaqa’, is that no confirming examples have been provided, from the Arabic used. In the centuries surrounding the Hijr, the only way to establish the meaning of the word, is by usage. The only way to establish whether the singular form ‘Alaqa’ can mean a 3 millimeters ‘embryo’, or ‘the thing that clings’, is to bring census, demonstrating this usage from the letter, throughout the Arabs of Mecca and Medina, close to the time of Mohammed, especially from the language of the Quresh. This will not be an easy task because much work has already been done on the clear Arabic, of the Quresh. The early Muslims understood intuitively, the need to know exactly what the Qur’anic words mean - And for this reason they make comprehensive studies of their language and poetry. Hence Abu Bakr, former Rector of ‘The Main Mask in ‘pairs’, brought up this subject at a conference, under one God in Munkalia, 1985. He posed the question to the audience…‘Has the comprehend of the text of the Qur’an, known at the time of Mohammed remained stable?’ And his answer was…‘Ancient poetry shows that it has’. We can only conclude…‘If the verses which bring spiritual comfort and hope to Muslims have remained stable, then the scientific statements embedded in those Verses, must also be accepted as stable, unless new evidence can be brought forward’. This is especially important, since some of the Verses say that this information is a sign. The Surah of ‘The Believers’ we saw above, says … ‘He it is, who created you from dust, then from a sperm drop, then from a clot… ‘Alaqa’ that perhaps you may understand’. And in the Surah of ‘The Pilgrimage’, He said… ‘O mankind! If you have doubt about the resurrection, consider. Therefore the question must be asked…‘If it was a clear sign to the men and women of Mecca and Medina, what did they understand from the word ‘Alaqa’ which would lead them to faith, in the resurrection?’ The answer : We are going to examine the historical situation leading up to the time of Mohammed, to see what Mohammed and his people believed about embryology. We will start with Apocrities. According to the best evidence, he was born on the Greek island of Kuss, in 460 B.C. And he has stages. His stages are as follows - The sperm is a product which comes from the whole body of each parent - Weak sperm coming from the weak parts and strong sperm from the strong parts. Then he goes ahead and talks about the coagulation of the mother’s blood. The seed embryo, then is contained in the membrane. Moreover it grows because of it’s mother’s blood, which descends to the womb - For once a woman conceives, she ceases to menstruate. Then about flesh - He says… ‘At this stage, with the descend in coagulation of the mother’s blood , flesh begins to be formed with the umbilicus. And lastly bones - He says…‘As the flesh grows it is formed in this distinct members, by breath. The bones grow hard, and send out ….branches like a tree. Next we will look at Aristotle. In his book on the generation of animals, sometime about 350 B.C., he gives his stages of embryology and he talks about ‘first semen’ and ‘menstrual blood’ or ‘catemania’. In this section, Aristotle speaks of the male semen, as being in a pure state. It follows, that what the female would contribute to the semen of the male, would be material for the semen to work on. In other words, the semen clots the menstrual blood. Then he goes to flesh. He says natural forms this from the purest material… ‘the flesh’, and from the residue there are, it forms bones. And lastly around the flesh around the bones, and attached to them by thin fibrous bands, grow the fleshly parts. Clearly, the Qur’an follows this exactly. Sperm clotting in the menstrual blood which forms meat - then the bones are formed and lastly around about the bones grow the fleshly parts. Next we will consider, Indian medicine. The opinion of Sharaka in 123 A.D., and Shushruta is that…“Both, the male and female contributed seed. The secretion of the male is called the sukra… semen. The secretion of the woman is called the Artava… sanita… blood. And it is derived from the blood by way of …..food, by way of blood” Here we see that in the mandeson of India, they too had the idea that the child was formed from semen and blood. Now we shall look at Galen. Galen was born in 131 A.D, in Bergamum - Modern Bergamum in Turkey. Galen says… Semen, the substance from which the fetus is formed, is not merely menstrual blood, as Aristotle maintained - But menstrual blood plus the two semen. The Qur’an agrees with Galen here, when it says in Surah 76:2, ‘We created man from a drop of mingled sperm’. Now we look at the Galen stages. Galen also taught that the embryo developed in stages. The first is that, in which the form of the semen prevails. The next stage is, when it has been filled with blood - And heart and brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped. This is the period that Hypocrites called ‘fetus’. The Qur’anic Surah 22:5 reflects this saying…‘Then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed. And now the third period of gestation has come. This…. thus, nature caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones. We saw above that the Qur’an agrees with this. In Surah 23:14, where it says… ‘And We clothe the bones with meat’. The fourth and final period…Sorry, the fourth and final period, is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated. Galen was so important in medicine, that just about the time of the Hijra, 4 leading medical men in Alexandria, Egypt, decided to form a Medical School, using 16 books of Galen, as the basis of the studies. This continued up to, and including the 13th century. We must now ask ourselves - What was the political, economic and medical situation in Arabia, at the time of Mohammed? From the Hajramount in Yemen, the caravans of the spice trade past North, through Mecca and Medina, and then reached into all of Europe. In North Arabia, in about 500 A.D., the Gazaneeds took over, and by 528, they controlled the Cyrian deserts over to the outskirts of Medina. ‘Syraic’… a form of Aramaic, related to Arabic, was their official language. As early as 463, the Jews translated the Torah and Old Testament from Hebrew, into ‘Syriac’ - The British Museum has a copy.
This made it available to the Guscians, who were Christians and to the Jewish tribes in Arabia. During this time Syrgius Cyrra Cynie who died in Constantinople in 536, one of the earliest and greatest translators from Greek into Syraic, translated various works on medicine, including 26 works of Galen. This made them available in the kingdom of Kasrov I, in Persia and to the Ghasan tribe, whose influence extended to the outskirts of Medina. Kasrov I, Arabic Khisra, King of Persia, was known as Kasrov the great. His troops conquered areas as far away as Yemen - And he also loved learning, and started several - schools. The school of Jundi Shapueer became during Kasrov first’s long reign of 48 years - The greatest intellectual center of the time. Within it’s walls Greek, Jewish, Nostorian, Persian and Hindu thoughts and experience were freely exchanged. Teaching was done largely in Syriac - from Syraic translations of Greek texts. This method Aristotle, Hypocates and Galen were readily available when the Medical School of Jundi Shapaer was operating during his reign. The next step was that the conquering Arabs compelled the Nostorians to translate their Cyriac text of Greek medicine, into Arabic. The translation from Syriac to Arabic was easy, as the two languages had the same grammar. Considering the local medical situation during Mohammed’s life, we know there were physicians living in Arabia during this period. Harith bin Caladia was the best educated physician trained in the healing art. He was born about the middle of the 6th century at Taif, in the tribe of Bani Sakif. He travelled through Yemen, and then Persia, where he received his education in the Medical Sciences, at the great Medical School of Jundi Shapuer - And thus was intimately acquanted with the medical teachings af Aristotle, Hypocrates and Galen. Having completed his studies, he practiced as a Physician in Persia, and during this time he was called to the court of King Kusrov, with whom he had a long conversation. He came back to Arabia about the beginning of Islam, and settled down at Taif. While there, Abu Khair, a King of Yemen came to see him in connection with a certain disease, and on being cured, rewarded him with much money, and a slave girl. Though Harith bin Caladia did not write any book on Medicine, his views on many medical problems are still preserved in his conversation with Kasrov. About the eye, he says that it constituted of ‘fat’, which is the white spot. About the second is constituted with ‘water’, which is the black part. And of ‘wind’ which constitutes the eyesight. All these things we know to be wrong now - But this was Greek thought. All is goes to show the acquaintance of Harith with the Greek doctors. Summarising the situation in a few words in his book, ‘Eastward delamitry Arabs’, Dr. Lucaine La’ Clerk writes…Harith bin Caladia studied medicine in Jundi Shaperer, and Mohammed owed to Harith the part of his medical knowledge. Thus with the one as well as the other, we easily recognize the traces of Greek medicine. Sometimes Mohammed treated the sick, but in the difficult cases he would send the patients to Harith. Another educated person around Mohammed, was Laden bin Harith. Not related to the doctor - He was a Pershiate and cousin of Mohammed, and had also visited the court of Kosrov. He had learned Persian and music, which he introduced among the Quraish at Mecca. However he was not sympathetic to Mohammed - Marking some of the stories in the Qur’an. Mohammed never forgave him for this, and when he was taken prisoner in the battle of Badr, he caused him to be put to death. In summary we see that… 1) Arabs living in Mecca and Medina in 600, had political and economical relations with people from Ethiopia, Yemen, Persia and Byzantine. 2) A cousin of Mohammed, knew Persian well enough, to do his musical studies in it. 3) The Ghasine tribe which ruled the Syrian desert over to the gates of Medina, used Syriar…. one of the main languages used to teach medicine - And Jundi Shapuer is their official language. An ill king of Yemen came to Taif, to consult the physician Harith Bin Caladia, who had been trained well at Jindi Shapaer – the best medical school in that world, and to whom Mohammed sometimes send patients. 5) During Mohammed’s lifetime a new medical school was established in Alexandria, using the 16 books of Galen as their text. This source shows that there was ample opportunity for Mohammed and the people around him, to have heard the embryological theories of Aristotle, Apocratis and Galen, when they went to seek treatment from Harith bin Colada and other local doctors. Thus when the Qur’an says in the late Meccan Surah of ‘The Believer’, 40: 67…‘He it is who created you from dust, then from a sperm drop, then from a leach like clot, that perhaps you may understand’. And then in the Surah of ‘The Pilgrimage’… ‘O! Mankind! If you have doubt about the resurrection, consider that we have created you from dust’. It is correct for us to ask again, what were they to understand? What were they to consider? And here are the Qur’anic stages again - Nutfa… ‘sperm’, Alaqa… ‘clot’, Mudga… ‘piece of meat’, Azaam… bones. And… 5) dressing of bones with muscles.’ The answer is very clear - They were understanding and considering that which was common knowledge, the embryological stages as taught by the Greek physicians. I don’t mean that Mohammed’s listeners all knew the names of the Greek physicians - But they knew the embryological stages of the Greek physicians. But they knew the embryological stages of the Greek physicians. They believed that the male sperm mixed with the female menstrual blood to cause it to clot, and this became the baby. 2) They believed there was a time when the fetus was formed, and unformed. 3) They believed the bones formed first, and then was covered with muscles. Allah was using that common knowledge as a sign, encouraging the listeners and readers to turn to Him. The trouble is, that this common knowledge was, and is not true. Era of physicians after Mohammed. We must now look at two well-known Physicians, from the period after Mohammed. Obviously they had no effect on the Qur’an, but they demonstrated that faith, and the embryological ideas of Aristotle, Apocrates and Galen, continued among the Arabs right up to the sixteen hundreds. If the correct translation of Alaqa is ‘leach like substance’, as modern Muslims like Shabbir Ali claim, there is no place for these post Qur’anic doctors said so. In fact it is just the opposite. The ideas of these Greek Physicians were being used to explain the Qur’an, and the Qur’an was coded to enlighten the meaning of the Greek Physicians. The human being takes its origin from two - This is speaking about Evenesena or Avisena. The human being takes its origin from two things – the male sperm which plays the part of factor – the female sperm… first part of the menstrual blood, which provides the matter. Thus we see that Ibn Seena gave the female semen, exactly the same role that Aristotle has assigned to the menstrual blood. It is difficult to overstate the importance of Ibn Seena, as a scientific and philosophical authority, for the pre modern Europeans. Then we are going to look at Ibn Khaima Zaujia. Ibn Khaim took full advantage of the agreement between Qur’anic Revelation and Greek medicine. It is not very clear probably, but the Hippocrates is in purplish, and the Qur’an is an bold type green, and the Hadith is in purple, and commentaries are in red, and his own thoughts, in sort of a blue-green. So it starts out – He is giving - He says Hypocrites said, in the third Ch. of Kitab al-Ajinna….‘The semen is contained in a membrane, and it grows because of the blood of its mother, which descends to the womb. Some membranes are formed at the beginning, others after the second month and others in the third month’. And this phrase about the blood descending to the womb, we saw it when we looked at Hypocrites slide. That is why God said - Here in the Qur’an is mentioned…‘He creates you in the womb of your mothers, by one formation after another, in three darkness - That is Qur’an 39 : 6. Then he gives his own ideas…. ‘Since each of these membranes has its own darkness when God mentioned the stages of creation and transformation from one state to another, He also mentioned the darkness of the membranes’. Most commentators explain, and here are the words of the commentators…‘It is the darkness of the belly and the darkness of the womb and the darkness of the placenta. In a second example, we read, Hippocrates said…‘The mouth opens up spontaneously and the nose and ears are formed from the flesh. The ears are opened and the eyes which are filled with a clear liquid.’ The Prophet used to say… ‘I worship Him who made my face and formed it, and opened my hearing, and eye sight and …… and so forth. Here we look at Hippocrates again, and they are in the second stage - It is the same thing, which I read. Ibn Khaim is quoting Hippocrates, and speaks about the mother’s blood descends around the membrane.
He could do this as we have seen, because the educated people of Mohammed’s time were familiar with Greek medicine. However what is important for us here today to realize is, that there is no place where the Qur’an corrected Greek medicine. There is no place for Ibn Khaim shouting…“Hey you guys you got it this all wrong - the correct meaning of ‘Alaga’ is, ‘that which clings’, or ‘leach’ like substance.” On the other contrary, even Khaima is demonstrating the agreement between the Qur’an and the Greek medicine - Their agreement in error. A final witness is the commentary of Badawi in 1200 A.D. - Here we have the commentary. We have the… we have the Qur’an here, we have his commentary, and here it is being translated. And he says then from ‘Alaqa’…‘a piece of solid blood’, is his explanation of ‘Alaqa’, ‘Alaqa’ is underlined - that is from the Qur’an. And here is his explanation… ‘A piece of solid blood.’ Then he goes on… ‘Then from a piece of meat’ - from the Qur’an. ‘A piece of meat originally as much as can be chewed, and so forth.’ As I mentioned in the beginning of the study, it is been said that the idea of the embryo developing through stages, is a modern one and that the Qur’an is anticipating modern embryology, by depicting different stages. Yet we have seen that Aristotle, Hippocrates, the Indians and Galen have all discussed the stages of embryological development, during the thousand years before the Qur’an. And after the coming of the Qur’an, the court of the different stages, as described by the Qur’an and the Greek doctors, was carried on in the teachings of Abisenia and Ibn Khaim - and is essentially the same as that taught by Galen, and those preceding him. Concerning the bone stage, it is clear as Dr. Moore demonstrated so capably is his text book that muscles start forming from the Semites, at the same time as the cartilage models of the bone. There is no bone stage where there is a skeleton sitting here, and then and then the muscles are plastered around it. It is equally clear that ‘Alaqa’ in the Qur’an, means ‘clot’ - and that the Quraish who heard Mohammed speaking, understood him to be referring to the menstrual blood, as the female contribution to the developing baby. Therefore we can conclude that during all these years, the Qur’anic Verses on embryology, saying that man is created from a drop of sperm, which becomes the clot, were in perfect record with the science of the 1st century of the Hijra, of the time of the Qur’an. But when compared with the modern science of the 20th century, Hippocrates is in error, Aristotle is in error, Galen is in error, and the Qur’an is in error - They are all in serious error. Now we are going to look a little bit about, ‘moon light.’ Does the Qur’an state that…‘The moon gives off reflected light from the sun’, before his was common knowledge ? In the Surah Noor, 71 : 15 - 16, it says… ‘See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens, one above another and made the moon a light…‘Nur’ in their midst, and made the sun as a lamp…‘Siraj.’ The moon is called a ‘light’…Arabic ‘Nur’ - and the sun a lamp -‘Siraj’. Some Muslims claim that since the Qur’an uses different words, speaking from about the light of the sun, and the light of the moon, it reveals that the sun is a source of light, while the moon only reflects light. This claim is implied very strongly by Shabbir Ali in his booklet…‘Science in the Qur’an’ - and stated clearly by Dr. Zakir Naik in his Video - ‘Is the Qur’an God’s Word’ as you will now see clearly.
(Dr. Zakir Video Clipping) “The light that we have… the light that we obtain from the moon - where does it come from? So he will tell me that previously we thought that the light of the moon was its own light. But today after science has advanced, we have come to know that the light of the moon is not its own light, but a reflected light of the sun. I will asked him a question, that its is mentioned in this Qur’an, in Surah Al- Furqaan, Ch. No..25, Verse No.61…‘Blessed is He, who has created the constellation and placed therein a lamp and a moon which has reflected light. The Arabic word for moon is ‘Qamar’, and the light described there is ‘Munir’- which is borrowed light, or ‘Nur’, which is a ‘reflection of light.’ The Qur’an mentions that the light of the moon is reflected light. You say you discovered it today? …How come it is mentioned in the Qur’an 1400 years ago? He will pause for a time - He won’t reply immediately and then he may say…‘May be, may be it is a fluke.’ I don’t argue with him for sake…..”
(Dr. Campbell) Near the end of the video we heard Dr. Naik explain the Arabic word for ‘moon’ is ‘Qamar’, and the light described there is ‘Munir’, which is ‘borrowed light’ or ‘Nur’, which is a reflection of light.’ Please do not forget what he said… ‘Munir is borrowed light, and Nur is reflected light.’ Not only is this claim to be a statement in keeping with scientific truth, but it also claimed to be scientifically miraculous, since this was supposedly only discovered relatively, recently. It is correct that the moon does not emit its own light, but only reflects the light of the sun - But this was known already almost a thousand years before Mohammed. Aristotle in about 360 BC discussed, knowing that the earth was round, by its shadow on the moon. He could only speak of the Earth’s shadow crossing the Moon, if he knew that Moon’s light is reflected light. If you still insist that this is a miracle of scientific knowledge, then we must ask ourselves…‘Do the Qur’anic words themselves support this claim?’ ‘Siraj’ - first we shall look at ‘Siraj.’ In Surah Nur which was read above, in Surah Al Furqaan, 25 : 61, it is simply ‘lamp’… referring to the Sun. In Surah Naba, 78:13, ‘Siraj Wahjan’ means ‘a dazling lamp’, again indicating the Sun. The words ‘Nur’ and ‘Munir’ comes from the same Arabic word - root. The word Munir is used 6 times in the Qur’an 4 times Suratul Imran, 3 : 184, Al Haj 22 : 8, Lukman 31: 20 and Fatir 35 : 35. It is the phrase ‘Kitabul Munir’, which Yusuf Ali translates as… ‘A book of enlightenment’ and Picktall uses… ‘The Scripture giving light.’ Clearly this indicates a book which is radiating the light of knowledge. Nothing about ‘reflection’… ‘Nur’. It says in Surah Nur, 71:16 and Yunus, 10:5 that… ‘Allah made the light… the Moon a light.’ Thus we find that the Qur’an says that the Moon is a light, and it never says that the Moon reflects light. Moreover in other Verses, the Qur’an says that… ‘Allah is a Nur… a light.’ Surah Nur, 24:35, one of the most beautiful passages in the Qur’an reads… ‘Allah is the light… Nur of the Heavens and the Earth. The parable of His light, is as if there was a niche and within it a lamp, the lamp enclosed in glass. The glass as it was a brilliant star and so forth.’ Thus we see that the word ‘Nur’ is used for both, ‘the moon’ and ‘Allah.’ Are we going to say that Allah gives off reflected light? I think not. But if you continue to insist that ‘Nur’ used for the Moon, means ‘borrowed’ or ‘reflected light’, and we saw above, that Allah is ‘the light’… Nur of the Heavens and the Earth - What is the source of this light? ‘Siraj’, of which Allah is only a reflection. Think about it - If Allah is named ‘Nur’ or a ‘reflected light’… who or what, is the ‘Siraj’? Well the Qur’an tells us who the ‘Siraj’ is - But the answer will shock you. In Surah Al Ahzab, 33:45, 46 we find… ‘O Prophet! Surely We have send thee as a witness - A bearer of glad tidings and a warner, and as a lamp spreading light. Here it says that Mohammed is the lamp spreading light. In Arabic it is ‘Sirajaan Munira’ Linguistically and spiritually, this is the end of the discussion. Linguistically ‘Siraj’ and the adjective ‘Moon’ here are used together for the same shining thing - the person Mohammed. It is clear ‘Munir’ does not mean reflected light in this verse – or in any other verse. It means shining. The people of Mohammed’s time understood that the Moon was shining, and they were right. Just as the people of Moses’ time understood that the Sun was the greater light, and the Moon the lesser light, and they were right. But if you insist, the Arabic words ‘Nur’ and ‘Moon’ here mean reflected light, then based on the use of these words in the Qur’an, Mohammed is like the ‘Sun’ and ‘Allah’ is like the ‘Moon.’ Does Dr. Naik really want to say that Mohammed is the source of Light, and Allah is only his reflection? Why are these so called scientific claims made, which no Muslim can support, if he make a serious study of his own Qur’an. In a dialogue like tonight it makes an honest discussion very difficult - almost impossible. Let us go on and look at the water cycle. Some Muslim authors claim that the Qur’an shows pre scientific knowledge of water cycle. What is the water cycle? Here in this slide, you see four steps. The first step is evaporation - The water evaporates from the seas and the earth. Second step – it becomes clouds. Third step – it gives rain. And fourth – this rain causes the plants to grow. Seems all very straight forward, and everybody knows 2, 3 and 4. Even if they live in a town, they know that clouds come and rain comes, and their flowers grow. But what about step one – ‘the evaporation.’ We cannot see it - It is difficult. And the Qur’an does not have step one. Now we are going to look at a Prophet from the Bible - Prophet from 700 B.C… Prophet Amos And he writes… ‘He who made the Pleiades and Orion, Who turns blackness into dawn, and darkens day into night, and then Who calls out for the waters, of the sea.’… Stage one. And pours them out over the face of the land… stage three - The Lord (Yahweh) is His name. And one other Prophet is Job, in 36:26-28, at least a thousand years before the Hijra. He says… ‘How great is God – beyond our understanding! The number of his years is past finding out. Stage one – He draws up the drops of water which distill from the mist as rain -that is stage three And then the clouds are mentioned – Stage two - Which pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind. So here in the Bible, this difficult stage one, is there for more than a thousand years, before the Qur’an. Now let us go on and look at Mountains. The Qur’an has more than a dozen Verses stating that God placed firm and unmovable mountains on the Earth. And in some of these Verses, the mountains are listed as either a blessing for believers, or a warning for the unbelievers. One example of this is found in the Surah Luqman, 31:10,11, where the mountains are one of five warnings. It says… ‘He has created the heavens. Says… ‘He has created the heavens without support, that you can see, and has cast aalqa onto the earth…‘firm mountain’–‘Rawaasiya’, lest it should shake with you. In ‘The Prophets’… Al-Ambiya, 21:31, as one of seven warnings we read… ‘And We have set on the earth, firm mountains lest it should shake with you….. with them.’Finally in ‘The Bee’… Nahl, 16:15, says that… ‘He has cast ‘aalga’ onto the earth… ‘firm mountains’ ‘Rawaasiya’, lest it should shake with you. We see then that the believers and the Non-believers are told, that Allah has done this great thing - He strolled down and placed the mountains, so that the earth will not shake violently with them. Therefore we must ask ourselves… ‘What did they understand ?’ In the next two Verses, another picture is given, ‘The News’, Al-Naba 78 : 6-7… “Have We not made the Earth an expanse, and the mountains as stakes ‘Al – jebaala awtaad’, as those used to anchor a tent in the ground. And then ‘The Overwhelming’ Al-Ghashiya, 88:17-19… ‘Do they…the unbelievers not look at the mountains… ‘Al-jibaal’… how they have been pitched like a tent.’ Here men are told that the mountains are placed as tent pegs -Tent pegs keep the tents, stable. So again the idea is put forward that the pegs… the mountains will keep the earth from shaking. A third picture is presented in the word ‘Rawaasiya’, used for mountains. This word comes from the Arabic root ‘Arsa.’ And the same root is used for the Arabic word for ‘anchor.’ To ‘throw out’ or ‘cast the anchor’ is aalgaa almirsaa. So instead of ‘Cast the anchor to keep the ship from moving’ - ‘We have cast the mountains, to keep the earth from shaking’. From these pictures, it is clear that Mohammed’s followers understood that the mountains were thrown down like tent pegs, to keep a tent in place like an anchor to hold the ship in place - To stop the earth from moving or limit earthquakes.
But in fact this is false - the forming of mountains causes earthquake. Therefore these Verses present a definite problem. Dr. Maurice Bucaile recognised this, and discussed them in his book… ‘The Bible, the Qur’an and Science.’ After quoting the above Verses about ‘Mountains’, he says… ‘Modern Geologists described the faults in the Earth, as giving foundations to the mountains, and the stability of the Earth’s crust results from this phenomenon of these faults. When asked about this, Professor of Geology, Dr. David A. Young says… ‘While it is true that many mountain ranges are composed of folded rocks and the folds maybe of large scale, it is not true that the folds render the crust stable. The very existence of the fold, is evidence of instability in the crust.’ In other words, mountains don’t keep the earth from shaking - their formation caused and still causes the surface of the earth to shake. Geological theories of the present time propose, that the hardened crust of the earth is made of sections and plates, which slowly move with relation to each other. Sometimes the plates separate, like North and South America, separating from Europe and South Africa. And some times they go together and they slide next to each other, and they bump into each other, and then they cause earthquakes. An example of this type of mountain formation is found in the Middle East, where the migration of Arabia towards Iran, has resulted in the zygross range in Iran. In many parts of the world, as one travels along the roads, one sees a hillside, where the sand storm layers which were horizontal when they were deposited, are now sticking up at angles. And so here you can see, these sand storm layers, which were horizontal in the beginning, now they are striking up at 75 degrees. They were pushed up there by an earthquake, by the mountains being formed. Sometimes the plates get caught on each other and starts sliding - During this period, great forces are built up. When the forces of friction are overcome, the piece of plate that was stuck, lurches forward, causing a shock wave of a thrust quake, and then all of a sudden it goes ‘dumm’ like this. In a recent earthquake, it was calculated that the Coco Splade in Mexico, suddenly jumped forward 3 meters. Well if your house suddenly jump 3 meters, there will be a Catastrophe. Another type of mountain is that formed by volcanoes. Lava and ash from inside the earth are thrown out and piled up, until a high mountain is formed - Even from the bottom of the sea. And we can see this kind of action in this picture. I hope you can see it - Not clear is it? The ocean crust is right here and the continental crust is there, and the oceanic crust is going down under the continental crust, and mountains have been found here. Here is the volcano, and here is the magma of the molted rock, going up through the volcano, and here is another volcano with magma going up. And so this is how the mountains are formed and earthquakes are formed. In the case of some igneous mountains, molten rock intrudes into the probe of the volcano’s opening and cools, to form a relatively dense intrusion, which extends below the surface of the earth. So this… if this gets stuck and sealed, then it would be like a plug - However it is not a root. It does not bear the weight of the mountain - It is really a plug. Therefore at occasions, pressure builds up under the plug, and the volcano explodes as happened in the South Pacific at Crackato, in 1883 when the whole island was blown away. And it happened at Mount Saint Halena in Ardase, when a mountain was blown away. We can conclude from this information, that mountains were formed originally with movement and shaking, and that now in the present, earthquakes are caused by their continued formation. When the plates buckle over each other, there are earthquakes - When the volcanoes erupt there can bring earthquake. However it is clear that the followers of Mohammed were understanding these Verses, to say that Allah threw the mountains down, as a tent peg or anchors, to keep the Earth from shaking. Throwing the mountains down under the Earth may be poetry, but to say that mountains keep the Earth from shaking, is a severe difficulty, which is out of step with modern science. Now we are going to take a little look at what the Sun says about… what the Qur’an says about the ‘Sun.’ In the Surah of the Kahf, 18:86, it says… ‘Until when Zulqarnain… that is Alexandra the great, reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water.’ I’m sorry - In 20th Century Science...20th Century Science... the Sun does not set in a spring of murky water. And then in ‘The Criterion’, Al Furqaan, 25:45 to 46, it says… ‘Hast thou not turned thy vision, to thy Lord - how He prolongs the shadow! If He willed, He could make it stationary! Then do We (God) make the sun its guide.” What about this? Has the sun… if we think of the sun overhead, you have no shadow or a little tiny shadow, and then as the sun goes down, your shadow gets longer on the other side. Well the sun is stationary in relation to the Earth - It is not what causes the shadow to shift. The rotating Earth guides the shadows. So if you demand 20th century accuracy, the Surah should say… ‘The rotating earth causes the shadows to change. I would look at a different subject… ‘Solomon’s death.’ Whether this is Science, I don’t know -May be sociology. Solomon’s death – He is popped up on his staff. Says… ‘The jinn worked for him, as Solomon desired. ‘Then when We decreed death upon Solomon, nothing showed them his death, except a little creeping creature of the earth, which gwaned away his staff. And when he fell, the jinn saw clearly how - If they had known the unseen, they would not have continued in the humiliating penalty of work. So here Solomon… he’s dead, propped up on his staff, like a walker from Morocco overseeing only a road gay, and no cook comes to ask him…what he wants for dinner. And no General comes for orders, and none of his Nobles comes to say… ‘Lets go hunting.’ No one notices. I’m sorry - I do not believe this story and it won’t fit 20th century Sociology, or 7th century Sociology, where the king will never be left alone like that. Now finally let us look at ‘Milk.’ It says in the Surah of ‘The Bee’, Nahl, 16:66… ‘We pour out to you from what is within their (the cattle’s) abdomen, between excretions and blood – milk, pure and agreeable to the drinkers.’ The abdomen where the intestines are…. Sorry - In 20th century medical science, the abdomens where the intestines are… is where the intestines are - the mammary glands are under the skin. In humans they are under the skin here - In cattle they are under the skin between the legs. No connection - There is no connection between the breasts and the intestines, and the their faces, in any way. Faces though in the body, it really is outside of the animal - Animals has finished with it. It is not connected to milk or to anything else. And finally going to look at ‘Communities.’ The Surah of ‘The Cattle’, Al – Anam 6:38, ‘There is not an animal on the earth, nor a being that flies on two wings, but forms communities like you…. Speaks about no animal on earth, not a being that flies, and then it says, that every one of them is communities like you - And I assume that the Qur’an is speaking about we humans. Well, in some Spiders, when they finishes mating, the mother eats the father. Well I’m glad that my wife did not eat me. Even in Bees, the extra male Drones are thrown out to die. Well I’m glad also that after we had four children, that my wife did not push me out of the house too. Finally, the Lions. When the Lion gets old, the male Lion gets old, a young lion comes along and drives him away from his own wives, and the young lion takes over the wives. But what he does with the cubs? The cubs of the old lion – he kills them all. So I do not think that this stance is true all other communities and all other animals do not live as communities like us. In conclusion it is clear that the Qur’an has many scientific errors. As a generality the Qur’an meets and reflects the science of its time - the science of the 7th century AD. We came here to seek truth - I’ve done my best to present valid information. If you want to see all the references, my book… ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of History and Science’, is for sale outside that door, at a bargain price, tonight. May the God of all truth, guide you - Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) Thank you Dr Campbell for your presentation. Now we have Br. Sabeel Ahmed presenting an introduction of our next speaker, Dr. Zakir Naik.
(Br Sabeel Ahmed) As Salaam Alaikum Wa Rahmatullah. It is my pleasure to introduce one of the best scholars of our time, Dr. Zakir Abdul Karim Naik. Age 34 years old, he is the president of Islamic Research Foundation, Bombay, India. Though a medical doctor by professional training, Dr. Zakir Naik is known as a dynamic international orator, in Islam and comparative Religion. Dr. Zakir Naik clarifies Islamic view points, and clears misconceptions about Islam, based upon the Qur’an, Hadith and the other Religious Scriptures, as well as adhering to reason logic and scientific facts.
He is popular for his critical analysis and convincing answers to challenging questions posed by audiences, after his public talks. In the last four years itself, Dr. Zakir Naik has delivered more than 400 public lectures world wide, in addition to many public talks in India. He appears regularly on many international TV and Satellite TV channel programs in several countries of the world. He has authored books on Islam and comparative Religion. He has also participated in several symposiums and dialogues, with prominent personalities of other Religious faiths.
(Dr. Mohammed) May I announce, after the talks by both the speakers and the response session, we would be having an open Question and Answer session. So those who have come late, kindly note, we’ll have questions on the mikes, followed by questions on index cards. Ladies and gentlemen, may I call upon Dr. Zakir Naik to present his talk.
(Dr. Zakir) …(Arabic)… Respected Dr. William Campbell, Dr. Maracuss, Dr. Jamal Badavi, Br. Samuel Nauman, Dr. Mohammed Naik, my respected elders and my dear brothers and sisters, I welcome all of you with the Islamic greetings… ‘As Salaamo Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barkatahu. May peace mercy and blessings of Allah Subhanawataala be on all of you. The topic of today’s dialogue is ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of Science.’ The Glorious Qur’an is the last and final Revelation which was revealed to the last and final Messenger Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him. For any book to claim that it is a Revelation from Almighty God, it should stand the test of time. Previously in the olden days, it was the age of miracles - Alhamdulillah, the Qur’an is the miracle of miracles. Later on came the age of literature and poetry, and Muslims and Non Muslims alike, they claim the Glorious Qur’an to be the best Arabic literature available on the face of the Earth. But today is the age of science and technology. Let us analyze whether the Qur’an is compatible or incompatible with modern science. Albert Einstein said… ‘Science without Religion is lame, and Religion without Science is blind’. Let me remind you that the Glorious Qur’an is not a book of Science…S-C-I-E-N-C-E, It is a book of signs S-I-G-N-S… It is a book of Ayats. And there more than 6000 signs… Ayats in the Glorious Qur’an out of which more than a thousand speak about science. As far as my talk regarding Qur’an and Science is concerned, I will only be speaking about scientific facts which has been established. I will not be speaking about scientific hypothesis and theories, which are based on assumption without any proof, because we all know many a times science takes U-turns. Dr. William Campbell who wrote a reply to the book of Dr. Maurice Bucaille… ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of history and science’ - He says in his book, that there are two types of approaches. One is a concordance approach - Which means a person tries to bring compatibility between the Scripture and science. And the other is the conflict approach, in which a person tries to bring a conflict between Scripture and science, like how Dr. William Campbell has done very well. But as far as the Qur’an is concerned, irrespective whether a person uses a conflicting approach, or a concordance approach – As long as you are logical, and after a logical explanation is given to you, not a single person will be able to prove a single Verse of the Qur’an, in conflict with established modern science. Dr. William Campbell has pointed out various alleged scientific errors in the Qur’an, and I am supposed to actually refute in the rebuttal. But since he chose to speak first, I will be refuting a few points in my talk - I will reply to the major part of his talk, mainly dealing with Embryology and with Geology. The remaining InshaAllah, InshaAllah, I will try my level best to reply in the rebuttal. I have to do both - I cannot do injustice to the topic. The topic is… ‘Qur’an and Bible in the light of Science.’ I cannot only speak about one Scripture - Dr. William Campbell hardly spoke about one or two points about the Bible, which I will deal with InshaAllah. I will speak about both InshaAllah, - I want to do justice to the topic. As far as Qur’an and modern Science is concerned, in the field of ‘Astronomy’, the Scientists, the Astronomers, a few decades earlier, they described, how the universe came into existence - They call it the ‘Big Bang’. And they said… ‘Initially there was one primary nebula, which later on it separated with a Big Bang, which gave rise to Galaxies, Stars, Sun and the Earth, we live in.’ This information is given in a nutshell in the Glorious Qur’an, in Surah Ambiya, Ch. 21, Verse No. 30, which says…. (Arabic).... Do not the unbelievers see…? …. (Arabic)…. ‘That the heavens and the earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder.’ Imagine this information which we came to know recently, the Qur’an mentions 14 hundred years ago. When I was in school, I had learned that the Sun in respect to the Earth - it was stationary - the Earth and the Moon, they rotated about in axis, but the sun was stationary. But when I read a Verse of the Qur’an saying, in Surah Al–Ambiya, Ch.. 21 Verse No. 33, it says…. (Arabic). … ‘It is Allah who has created the night and the day.’…. (Arabic)…. The sun and the moon…. (Arabic)…. Each one travelling in an orbit with its own motion. Now Alhamdulillah, modern science has confirmed the Qur’anic statement. The Arabic word used in the Qur’an is ‘Yasbahoon’, which describes the motion of a moving body. When it refers to a celestial body, it means it is rotating about its own axis. So Qur’an says the sun and the Moon, they revolve as well as rotate about their own axis. Today we have come to know that the Sun takes approximately 25 days to complete one rotation. It was Edvin Hubbel who discovered that the universe is expanding. The Qur’an says in Surah Dhariyat, Ch. 51, Verse No. 47, that…‘We have created the expanding universe’ - The vastness of space. The Arabic word ‘Mohsiana’ refers to ‘vastness’ – ‘the expanding universe.’ Regarding the topics on Astronomy, which Dr. William Campbell touched, I will deal in the rebuttal, InshaAllah. In the field of ‘Water cycle, Dr. William Campbell pointed out, certain things. The Qur’an describes the water cycle in great detail. And Dr. William Campbell mentioned 4 stages. In his book he mentions 4 (a) and (b) - the last one he did not mention in the slide - I don’t know why? It says... ‘The Driplinition’…‘The Water table.’ He missed out here - Maybe because it was not mentioned in the Bible. He said there is not a single Verse in the Qur’an, which speaks about ‘evaporation.’ Qur’an says in Surah Al-Tariq, Ch. No. 86, Verse No. 11, that….(Arabic)…. ‘By the capacity of the heavens to return.’ And almost all the commentaries of the Qur’an - they said, that this Verse of Surah Tariq, Ch. No. 86, Verse No. 11, refers to the capacity of the heavens to return back rain - meaning ‘Evaporation.’ Dr. William Campbell who knows Arabic, may say…‘Why did not Allah Subhanawa Taala specifically mention….(Arabic) …. Meaning… ‘The capacity of the heavens to return back rain.’ Why did not Allah mention specifically? Now we have came to know why did not Allah do that, in His Divine wisdom. Because today we have came to know that besides - the Ozonosphere… the layer above the earth - Besides returning back rain, it even returns back other beneficial matter and energy of the Earth, which is required by the human beings. It does not only return back rain - Today we have come to know, it even returns back waves of Telecommunication, of Television, of Radio, by which we can see TV, we can communicate, we can hear the radio. And besides that, it even returns back the harmful rays of the outer space, back on the other side, and absorbs. For example the sun light… the ultraviolet rays of the Sun light is absorbed by the Ionosphere. If this was not done, life on the Earth would have ceased to exist. So Allah Subhanawataala is far superior and for more accurate, when He says…. (Arabic)…. By the capacity of the Heaven to return.’ And the remaining things as he mentioned is there in the Qur’an - You can refer to my Videocassette. The Qur’an describes the ‘Water cycle’ in great detail. Regarding what he said about the Bible, he showed stage 1 and stage 3 in the first slide, and in the second stage 1, 3, and then 2. ‘That the rain water is taken up’… he says… ‘and then the rain water comes down on the Earth.’ This is the philosophy of Phasofmillitas, in 7th century BC. He thought that the spray of the ocean was picked up by the wind, and send to the interior as rain. There is no cloud mentioned there. In the second quotation Dr. William Campbell gave - First is, according to him, ‘evaporation’ which we agree. We don’t mind having the concordance approach with the Bible. ‘…Then rain falls down, and then are the clouds formed.’ - That is not the complete water cycle. Alhamdulillah, the Qur’an describes the water cycle in great detail, in several places. How does the water rise, evaporates, forms into clouds - the clouds join together, they stalk up, there is thunder and lightning, water comes down, the clouds move into the interior, they fall down as rain, and the evaporation of the water table and Alhamdulillah in great detail. The Qur’an speaks about the water cycle in great detail, in several places. In Surah Nur, Ch. No. 24, Verse No. 43, in Surah Rum, Ch. No. 30, Verse 48, in Surah Al-Zumar, Ch. 39, Verse 21, in Surah Muminun, Ch. 23, Verse 18, in Surah Rum Ch. No. 30, Verse No. 24, in Surah Al-Hijr, Ch. 15, Verse No. 22, in Surah Araf Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 57, in Surah Rad, Ch. No. 13, Verse No. 17, in Surah Furqan, Ch. 25, Verse No. 48 and 49, in Surah Fatir, Ch. No. 35, Verse No. 9, in Surah Yasin, Ch. 36, Verse No. 34, in Surah Jathiya, Ch. 45, Verse No. 5, in Surah Qaf, Ch. No. 50, Verse No. 9, in Surah Al-Waqiah, Ch. No. 56, Verse No. 68 and 70, in several places, Surah Al-Mulk,Ch. 67, Verse No. 30, the Glorious Qur’an speaks about the ‘Water cycle’, in great detail. Dr. William Campbell spent maximum time on Embryology’… about half his talk - quite a lot on Geology - and touched on other six topics - I’ve noted down. In the field of Geology, we have come to know today - the Geologists, they tell us, that the radius of the Earth is approximately 3750 miles, and the deeper layers, they are hot and fluid, and cannot sustain life. And the superficial part of the Earth’s crust, which we live on, it is very thin - Hardly 1 to 30 miles. Some portions are thicker, but majority one to 30 miles. And there are high possibility that this superficial layer, the Earth’s crust - it will shake. It is due to the ‘Folding phenomenon’, which gives rise to mountain ranges, which gives stability to this Earth. And Qur’an says in Surah Nabaa, Ch. No. 78, Verse No. 6 and 7…‘We have made the Earth as an expanse…. (Arabic) ….and the mountains as stakes.’ The Qur’an does not say, mountains were thrown up as stakes… mountain as stakes. Arabic word ‘Autaad’ means ‘stakes’… meaning ‘tent peg’. And today we have come to know in the study of modern Geology, that mountain has got deep roots. This was known in the second half of the 19th century. And the superficial part that we see of the mountain, is a very small percentage. The deeper part is within - Exactly like a stake how it is driven in the ground. You can only see a small part on top… the majority is down in the ground - or like a tip of the ice berg…you can see the tip on the top and about 90% is beneath water. The Qur’an says in Surah Gashiya, Ch. 88, Verse No. 19, and Surah Naziat, Ch. No. 79, Verse No. 32 ….. (Arabic) …. And We have made the mountains standing firm on the Earth’ - Made the mountains standing firm on the Earth. Today after modern Geology has advanced, and Dr. William Campbell said that… ‘By the theory of Platectonics - It was propounded in 1960, which gives rise to mountain ranges.’ The Geologists today, do say that the mountains give stability to the Earth - Not all Geologists, but many do say. I have not come across a single Geological book, and I challenge Dr. William Campbell to produce a single Geological book - Not his personal correspondence with the Geologist. That does not carry weight. His personal correspondence with Dr. Keith Moore …. Documented proof. And if you read the book ‘The Earth’ which is referred by almost all the universities, in the field of Geology, one of its authors by the name of Dr Frank Press, who was the advisor to the former president of USA, Jimmy Carter, and was the president of the Academy of Science of USA. He writes in his book that…‘The mountains are wedge shaped - It has deep roots within. And he says that…‘The function of the mountain is to stabilize the earth.’ And the Qur’an says in Surah Ambiya, Ch. No 21, Verse No. 31, in Surah Luqman, Ch. No. 31 Verse No.10, as well as in Surah Nahl, Ch. No. 16, Verse No. 15, that…‘We have made the mountains standing firm on the Earth, lest it would shake with them and with you.’ The function of the mountain in the Qur’an, is given to prevent the Earth from shaking. Nowhere does the Qur’an say that the mountain prevents the earthquake. And Dr. William Campbell said - He writes in his book, and even the talk, that… ‘You find in the mountains regions, there are various earthquakes, and mountains cause earthquake.’ Point to be noted - Nowhere does the Qur’an say that mountains prevent earthquake. The Arabic word for ‘earthquake’ as Dr. William Campbell knows Arabic, is ‘zilzaal’ or ‘zalzala’- But the words used in these three Verses I quoted, it is ‘Tamida.’ ‘Tamida’ means ‘to shake’, ‘to ‘sway’, ‘to swing.’ And Qur’an says in Surah Luqman, Ch. 31, Verse No. 10, as well as Surah Nahl, Ch. No. 16 Verse No. 15…‘We have put on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it would shake with you. It is ‘tamide bikum’…‘Shake with you’, Indicating, if the mountains were not there, if you would have walked, if you would have moved, even the earth would have moved with you - If you would have swayed, even the earth would have swayed with you. And we know normally when we walk on the Earth, the Earth does not shake, and the reason for this is, according to Dr. Frank Press and Dr. Najjat who is from Saudi Arabia, and he wrote a full book on the Geological concepts in the Qur’an, answering almost every thing what Dr. William Campbell has said - in detail. And Dr. William Campbell in his book, he writes that…‘If mountains prevent the shaking of the earth, then how come you find earthquakes in the mountains regions.’ I said, No where does the Qur’an say, mountains prevent earthquake. Earthquake is ‘zilzaal’ - and if you see the definition in the Oxford dictionary, it says… Earthquake is due to convulsion of the superficial crust of the Earth, due to relief of compressed Siesmic waves, due to crack in the rock, or due to volcanic reaction. The Qur’an speaks about ‘zalzala’ in Surah Zalzaal, Ch. 99 - But here it speaks about ‘tamida bikum’- ‘to prevent the earth from shaking with you.’ And in reply to the statement…‘That if mountains prevent earthquakes, how come you find earthquakes in mountainous regions ?’ The reply is, that - If I say that medical doctors, they prevent the sickness and disease in a human being, and if someone argues…‘If doctors prevent the sickness and diseases in a human being, how come you find more sick people in the hospitals, where there are more doctors than at home - where there are no doctors.’ In the field of Oceanology, the Glorious Qur’an says, in Surah Furqan, Ch. No. 25, Verse No. 53, that…‘It is Allah who has let free two bodies of following water - One sweet and palatable, the other salt and bitter. Though they meet, they do not mix. Between them there is a barrier which is forbidden to be trespassed. Qur’an says in Surah Rahman, Ch. 55 Verse No. 19 and 20……. (Arabic) ……‘It is Allah who has let free two bodies of flowing water. Though they meet, they do not mix. Between them there is barrier, which is forbidden to be trespassed.’ Previously the commentators of the Qur’an wondered…‘What does the Qur’an mean? We know about sweet and salt water - But between them there is a barrier - though they meet do not mix. Today after advancement of Oceanology, we have come to know, that whenever one type of water flows into the other type of water, it looses its constituents, and gets homogenized into the water it flows. There is a slanting homogenizing area, which the Qur’an refers to as ‘Barzak’ ‘unseen barrier’ And this has been agreed upon by several Scientists, even of America, by the name of Dr. Hay - he is an Oceanologist. And Dr. William Campbell writes in his book that…‘It is an observable phenomena. The fisherman of that time knew there were two types of water… salt and sweet So Prophet Mohammed during an expedition to Syria, he may have gone in the sea, or he might have spoken to these fishermen.’ Sweet and salt water is an observable phenomenon, I agree - But people did not know that there was an unseen barrier, until recently. The Scientific point to be noted here is the ‘Barzak’ - not the sweet and the salt water. In the field of Embryology, Dr. William Campbell spent approximately half of his talk on that. Time will not permit me to reply to every small thing which are illogical. I’ll just give a brief reply, which will be satisfactory InshaAllah. And for more details, you can refer to my Video cassette – ‘Qur’an and Modern Science’, and my other cassettes on… ‘Qur’an and Medical Science.’ There were a group of Arabs who collected the data dealing in the Qur’an about ‘Embryology’ and the Hadith dealing with Embryology. And they presented it to Professor Keith Moore, who was the chairman and the head of the department of ‘Anatomy’, in the university of Toronto, in Canada - And at present he is one of the leading scientist in the field of ‘Embryology.’ After reading the various translations of the Qur’an, he was asked to comment, and he said… ‘Most of the Verses of the Qur’an and the Hadith, are in perfect conformity with Modern Embryology. But there are a few Verses which I cannot say that they are right neither can I say that they are wrong, because I myself don’t know about it. And two such Verses were the first two Verses of the Qur’an to be revealed, from Surah Iqra or Surah Alaq , Ch. 96 Verses No. 1 and 2 which says…(Arabic)… ‘Read, recite or proclaim in the name of thy Lord, Who created, Who created the human beings from something which clings - a leech like substance. Regarding Dr. William Campbell’s statement that…‘To analyse the meaning of a word, we have to see what was the meaning at that time when it was revealed’-At that time when the book was written. And he rightly said that to analyze the meaning, we have to analyze the meaning at the time it was revealed, and to the people whom it was meant for. As far as this statement of his is concerned, regarding the Bible, I do agree with it totally - Because the Bible was only meant for the children of Israel, for that time. It is mentioned in the Gospel of Mathew, Ch. No. 10, Verse No. 5 and 6, Jesus Christ peace be upon him tells his disciples… ‘Go ye not in the way of the Gentiles.’ Who are the Gentiles? The Non-Jews, the Hindus, the Muslims ‘But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.’ Jesus Christ peace be upon him said in the Gospel of Mathew, Ch. No. 15, Verse No. 24… ‘I am not sent, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.’ So Jesus Christ and the Bible, were only meant for the children of Isreal. Since it was meant for them, to analyze the Bible, you have to use the meaning of the word, which was utilized at that time. But the Qur’an was not meant only for the Arabs of that time - Qur’an is not meant only for the Muslims. The Qur’an is meant for the whole of humanity, and it is meant to be for eternity. Qur’an says in Surah Ibrahim, Ch. 14, Verse. 52, in Surah Baqarah Ch. No. 2, Verse 185, and Surah Zumar Ch. 39, Verses. 41, that the Qur’an is meant for the whole of human kind. And Prophet Mohammed, may peace be upon him, was not sent only for the Muslims or the Arabs. Allah says in the Qur’an in Surah Ambiya Ch. No. 21, Verse No. 107------(Arabic)----That We have send thee as a mercy, as a guidance, to the whole of humankind.’ So as far as the Qur’an is concerned, you cannot limit the meaning only for that time, because it is meant for eternity. So one of the meaning of ‘Alaqa’… is ‘leech like substance’ or ‘something which clings.’ So professor Keith Moore said… ‘I did not know whether the early stage of the embryo looks like a leech’ And he went into his laboratory, and he analyzed the early stage of an embryo, under a microscope and compared it with the photograph of a leech, and he was astonished at the striking resemblance. This is a photograph of a leech, and human embryo. What Dr. William Campbell showed you is the other perspective of it. If I show this book - it looks like a rectangle - If I show you like that, it is a different perspective. That diagram is given in the book - The diagram which you saw on the slide is even there - And I’ll deal with it InshaAllah. Professor Keith Moore, after about 80 questions were asked to him, he said… ‘If you would have asked me these 80 questions, 30 years ago, I would not be able to answer more than 50 percent - Because embryology has developed recently in the past 30 years.’ He said this in the eighties. Now, do we believe Dr. Keith Moore whose statement is available outside in the foyer - his videocassette is available… ‘This is the truth’...’Anna-ul-Haq’... recorded statement. So will you believe Dr. William Campbell’s personal conversation with Professor Keith Moore, or the one mentioned in this book, with Islamic edition as well as the photograph that I had shown to you? And in the videocassette available outside you can see it - He makes those statements. So you have to choose which is more logical - Personal discussion with Dr. William Campbell or his statement on Video. Like how Dr. William Campbell showed my video - 100 percent proof what I said… ‘Moon is reflected light’ - I’ll come to it later on. And whatever additional information he got from Qur’an and Hadith, it was incorporated later into this book…‘The Developing Human’ - the 3rd edition nd this book got an award for the best medical book written by a single author in that year. This is the Islamic edition that was put forward by Shaikh Abdul Majeed Al-Jindani and certified by Keith Moore himself. The Qur’an says in Surah Muminun, Ch. 23 Verse No. 13, and Surah Haj Ch. 22, Verse No. 5, and no less than 11 different places in the Qur’an, that the human beings have been made from a ‘nutfaa’ ‘minute quantity of liquid’…like a trickle that is remaining in the cup. ‘Nutfa’ in Arabic… a very small quantity. Today we have come to know, that in one seminal emission, in which there are several millions of sperms, only one is required to fertilize the ovum - ‘The Qur’an refers as ‘nutfa.’ Qur’an says in Surah Sajda Ch. 32 Verse no. 8…‘We have created the human beings from ‘Sulalah’ - That means the best part of a whole. The one sperm which fertilizes the ova out of the millions of sperms, the Qur’an refers to as ‘Sulalah’…‘best part of the whole.’ And Qur’an says in Surah Insan, Ch. 76 Verse No. 2…‘We have created the human beings from ‘nutfatunamshaj’…a minute quantity of mingled fluid’ - referring to the sperm as well as the ovum - Both are required for the fertilization. The Qur’an describes the various embryological stages in great detail, of which the slides were shown to you - Dr. William Campbell, he helped me to complete this topic. It is mentioned in Surah Muminun Ch. 23, Verses No. 12 to 14 - The translation is that…‘We have created the human beings from a ‘nutfa.’ – ‘A minute quantity of liquid.’ Then placed it in ‘cararemakeen’ - a place of security. Then We made it into an ‘Alaqa’ - a leech like substance - something which clings - a congealed clot of blood. Then We made that ‘Alaqa’ into a ‘Mutga’ a ‘chewed like lump.’ Then We made the ‘Mutga’ into ‘Izama’…bones. Then clothed the bones with ‘leham’… flesh. Then We made it a new creature. Blessed be Allah Who is the best to create. These 3 Verses of the Qur’an, speak about the various embryological stages in great detail. First the nutfa placed in a place of security - Made into an ‘Alaqa’, Alaqa has got 3 meanings - One is ‘something’ which clings’, and we know that in the initial stages, the embryo clings to the uterine wall and continues clinging till the end. Point No.2, that it also means a leech like substance, and as I discussed earlier, the embryo in the initial stages, does look like a leech. Besides looking like a leech - it also behaves like a leech - It receives its blood supply from the mother’ like a bloodsucker. And the 3rd meaning which Dr. William Campbell objected to - that is the right meaning… ‘the congealed clot of blood’- And that is why Qur’an has a scientific error. And I do agree with him that Dr. William Campbell did not agree. He said how can it mean a congealed clot of blood, because if this is the case, then the Qur’an is wrong. am sorry to say Qur’an is not wrong - Dr. William Campbell with due respect to him… He is wrong. Because today…today…after advancement of embryology, even Dr. Keith Moore - He says that… ‘In the initial stages, the embryo, besides looking like a leech, also looks like a congealed clot of blood, because in the initial stages, of the stage of ‘Alaqa’, 3 to 4 weeks, the blood is clotted within closed vessels. And Dr. William Campbell made it easy for me - He showed you a slide. It will be difficult for you to see - But this is the slide he showed you. This is exactly what Professor Keith Moore said… ‘Looks like a clot, in which the blood is clotted within closed vessels And during the 3rd week of the embryo, the blood circulation does not take place - it starts later on - Therefore it assumes the appearance of a clot. And if you observe the conspectus - that is after abortion takes place, you can see, it look like a clot. Only one line answer is sufficient to answer all the allegations of Dr. William Campbell is that, the stages of the Qur’an while it describes the embryological stages, is only based on appearance… Appearance. First is the appearance of the ‘Alaqa’ , a ‘leech like substance’ as well as a clot of blood.’ And Dr. William Campbell rightly said that some ladies come and ask… ‘Please remove the clot’ - It does look like a clot And the stages are based on appearance. It is created from something, which appears like a clot, which appears like a leech, and is also something which clings. Then the Qur’an says… ‘We made the ‘Alaqa’ into ‘Mutga’ – a chewed like lump.’ Professor Keith Moore took plastic seal, and bit between his teeth to make it look like a ‘Mutga’- The teeth marks resembled the ‘somites.’ Dr. William Campbell said… ‘When the ‘Alaqa’ becomes a ‘Mutga’ the clinging is yet there - It is there till 8 and a half months- So… the Qur’an is wrong.’ I told you in the beginning, the Qur’an is describing the appearance. ‘The leech like’ appearance and the ‘clot like’ appearance, is changed to the ‘chewed’ like appearance. It yet continues to cling till the end - There is no problem. But the stages are divided on appearance - Not on the function. Later on the Qur’an says… ‘We made the ‘Mutga’ into ‘Izama’…bones - Then clothed the bones with flesh.’ Dr. William Campbell said, and I do agree with him, that… ‘The precursors of the muscles and the cartilagees… that is the bones, they form together - I agree with that. Today embryology tells us that the primordia of the muscles and the bones - they form together between the 25th and the 40th day, which the Qur`an refers to as the stage of ‘mudga.’ But they are not developed… they are not developed. Later on, at the end of the seventh week, the embryo takes form of human appearance - then the bones are formed. Today modern embryology says the bones are formed after the 42nd day, and it gives an appearance of a skeletal thing. Even at this stage when the bones are formed, the muscles are not formed. Later on, after the 7th week and the starting of 8th week, are the muscles formed. So Qur’an is perfect in describing first ‘Alaqa’, then ‘Mutga’, then ‘Izama’, then clothed with flesh, and when they form - the description is perfect. As Professor Keith Moore said that… ‘The stages - that how it is described in modern embryology… stage 1,2,3,4,5, is so confusing, The Qur’anic stage on embryology describing on the base of appearance, and the shape, is far more superior.’ Alhamdulillah. Therefore he said… therefore he said that… ‘I have no objection in accepting that Prophet Muhammed is the messenger of God and that this Glorious Qur’an has to be a Divine Revelation, from Almighty God.’ It is mentioned in Surah Nisa, Ch. No. 4, Verse No. 56, It speaks about ‘Pain.’ Previously the doctors, they thought that the brain was only responsible for feeling of ‘pain.’ Today we have come to know besides the brain, there are certain receptors in the skin, which are responsible for feeling of the pain, which we call as the ‘pain receptors.’ Qur’an says in such Surah Nisa Ch. 4, Verse 56, that… ‘As to those who reject Our signs, We shall cast them into the hell fire, and as often as their skins are roasted, We shall give them fresh skin, so that they shall feel the pain. Indicating that there is something in the skin, which is responsible for feeling of pain, which the Qur’an refers to as ‘pain receptors.’ Professor Thagada Tagada Shaun, who is the head of the department of Anatomy, in Chang Mai University in Thailand, - Only on the basis of this one Verse, he proclaimed the Shahada, in the 8th Medical conference in Riyadh, and said …(Arabic)…. That… ‘There is no God but Allah, and that Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, is the Messenger of Allah. I started my talk by quoting the Verse from the Glorious Qur’an from Surah… from Surah Fussilat, Ch. 41, Verse 53, which says…(Arabic) ‘That soon We shall show them Our signs in the farthest reaches of the horizons, and into their souls, until it is clear to them, that this is the truth.’ This one Verse was sufficient to prove to Dr. Thagada, Thagada Shaun, that Qur’an is a Divine Revelation. Some may require 10 signs, some may require 100. Some, even after a 1000 signs are given, they will not accept the truth. Qur’an calls such people, as in Surah Baqarah Ch. 2, Verse 18…(Arabic)… ‘The deaf, the dumb, the blind, they will not return to the true path.’ The Bible says the same thing in Gospel of Mathew, Ch. No. 13, Verse No. 13… ‘Seeing they see not, hearing they hear not, neither will they understand.’ nd regarding the other parts of ‘Embryology’, I will deal in my rebuttal InshaAllah, if time permits - I have to do justice to the other part also… regarding ‘Bible in the light of science.’ At the outset let me tell you, that Qur’an says in Surah Rad, Ch. 13, Verse. 38, that… ‘We have given several Revelations.’ y name only 4 are mentioned - The Torah, the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur’an. The Torah is the ‘Wahi’ the ‘Revelation’, which was given to Prophet Moses, peace be upon him. The Zaboor is the ‘Wahi’, which was given to David, peace be upon him. The Injeel is the ‘Wahi’, the ‘Revelation’ which was given to Jesus, peace be upon him. And Qur’an is the last and final Revelation, which was given to the last and final Messenger Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him. Let me make it very clear to every one, that this Bible which the Christians believe to be the word of God, is not the ‘Injeel’ which we Muslims believe, was revealed to Prophet Jesus, peace be upon him. This Bible according to us, it may contain the words of God - But it also contains words of Prophets, words of historians, it contains absurdities, obscenity, as well as innumerable scientific errors. If there are scientific points mentioned in the Bible - there are possibilities - why not? It may be part of the word of God, in the Bible. But what about the scientific errors ? - What about the unscientific portions? - Can you attribute this to God ? want to make it very clear to my Christian brothers and sisters - The purpose of my presentation on ‘Bible and science’ is not to hurt any Christian’s feeling. If while presenting, if I hurt your feelings, I do apologize in advance. The purpose is only to point out, that a God’s Revelation cannot contain scientific errors. As Jesus Christ, peace be upon him said… ‘Search ye the truth, and the truth shall free you.’ We have the Old Testament, we have the New Testament - Now you should follow the Last and Final Testament, which is the Glorious Qur’an. As far as Dr. William Campbell is concerned, I can be more liberal with him - Because he has written a book ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of history and science.’ He has given a presentation, and he is a medical doctor - I don’t have to be very formal with him. As far as the other Christian brothers and sisters are concerned, I apologize if I hurt you feelings during the presentation. Let us analyse what the Bible says about modern science - First we deal with Astronomy., The Bible speaks about the creation of the universe. In the beginning, 1st Book, Book of Genesis, 1st Ch., it is mentioned - It says… ‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, in six days and talks about a evening and a morning, referring to a 24 - hour day. Today scientists tell us, that the universe cannot be created in a 24 hour period of six days. Qur’an too speaks about six ‘ayyams’. The Arabic word singular is ‘yaum’ plural is ‘ayyam’. It can either mean a day of 24 hours, or it is a very long period, an ‘yaum’, an epoch. Scientists say we have no objection in agreeing that the universe - it could have been created in 6 very long periods. Point No.2 - Bible says in Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses No. 3 and 5,…‘Light was created on the first day.’ enesis, Ch., 1 Verses, 14 to 19… ‘The cause of light - stars and the sun, etc. was created on the fourth day’. How can the cause of light be created on the 4th day - later than the light which came into existence on the first day? - It is unscientific. Further, the, Bible says Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses 9 to 13… ‘Earth was created on the 3rd day. How can you have a night and day without the earth ? The day depends upon the rotation of the Earth Without the earth created, how can you have a night and day? Point No..4, Genesis, Ch. No. 1 Verses 9 to 13 says… ‘Earth was created on the third day.’ Genesis Ch. No. 1 Verses 14 to 19 says…‘The Sun and the Moon were created on the fourth day.’ Today science tells us… ‘Earth is part of the parent body… the sun.’ It cannot come into existence before the sun – It is unscientific. Point No. 5, the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No. 11 to 13…‘The vegetation, the herbs the shrubs, the trees - they were created on the 3rd day And the Sun, Genesis, Ch. No. 1, Verses. 14 to 19, was created on the 4th day.How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight, and how can they survive without sunlight ? Point No.6, that the Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have. There are certain people who try and reconciliate, and say that the six days mentioned in the Bible, it actually refers to epocs - like the Qur’an long periods - not six, 24 hour day. It is illogical - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly states 24 hours, it indicates. But even if I use the concordance approach - no problem. I agree with your illogical argument - Yet they will only be able to solve the 1st scientific error of 6 days creation, and second, of first day ‘light’ and 3rd day ‘earth.’ The remaining four, yet they cannot solve. Some further say that… ‘If it is a 24-hour period, why cannot the vegetables survive for one 24 hour day without sunlight?’ I say ‘Fine - If you say that the vegetables were created before the sun, and can survive for one 24-hour day, I have got no objection. But you cannot say the days mentioned are 24 hours as well as epochs - You cannot have the cake and eat it, both. If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining 4 are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only Point No.5 - the remaining 5 are yet there - It becomes unscientific. I leave it to Dr. William Campbell, whether he wants to say… ‘It is long period’, and say that there are only 4 scientific errors - or say… ‘It is a 24 hour day’, and say there is only 5 scientific errors in the creation of the universe. Regarding the concept of Earth, there are various Scientists who have described… ‘How will the world end.’ Hypothesis - Some may be right, some may be wrong. But either the world will perish or the world will live forever. Both cannot take place simultaneously – It is unscientific. But this is exactly what the Bible says. It is mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Hebrews, Ch. No.1 Verses No.10 and 11, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.102, Verse No.25 and 26, that…‘Almighty God created the Heavens and the Earth, and they will perish.’ Exactly opposite is mentioned in the book of Ecclesiastics, Ch. No.1, Verse No.4, and the book of Psalms, Ch. No.78, Verse No.69, that… ‘The earth will abide forever.’ I leave it to Dr. William Campbell to choose which of the two Verses are unscientific - the first pair or the second pair. One has to be unscientific - Both cannot take place. The world cannot abide forever as well as perish – It is unscientific. Regarding ‘the Heavens’, the Bible says in Job, Ch. 26, Verse 11, that…‘The pillars of the Heaven will tremble.’ Qur’an says in Surah Luqman, Ch. 31, Verse No.10, that…‘The Heavens are without any pillars - Don`t you see? Don’t you see the Heavens are without any pillars? - Bible says heaven have got pillars. Not only do the Heavens have got pillars - Bible says in the first book of Samuel, Ch. No.2 Verses No.8, as well as the book of Job Ch. No.9, Verse No.6, and the book of Psalms Ch. No.75, Verse No.3, that… ‘Even the earth have got pillars.’ In the field of ‘Diet and Nutrition’ lets analyse, what does the Bible say. The Bible says in the book of Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse No.29, that… ‘God has given you all the herbs bearing seeds, the trees bearing fruits - those that bear seed, as meat for you.’ New International Version says… ‘The seed bearing plants, and the trees bearing fruits bearing seeds are food for you, all of them.’ Today, even a layman knows that there are several poisonous plants like wild berries, stritchi, datura, plants containing alkaloid, polyander, bacaipoid - that which if you ingest, if you eat there are high possibilities you may die. How come the Creator of the universe and the human beings, does not know, that if you have these plants, you will die. I hope Dr. William Campbell does not give these vegetarian diet to his patients. The Bible has a scientific test how to identify a true believer. It is mentioned in the Gospel of Mark, Ch. No.16, Verse No.17 and 18 - It says that… ‘There will be signs for true believers and among the signs - In my name they shall cast out devils, they shall speak foreign tongues, new tongues, they shall take up serpents - And if they drink deadly poison, they shall not be harmed - And when they place their hand over the sick, they shall be cured.’ This is a scientific test - In scientific terminology, it is known as the ‘confirmatory test’ for a true Christian believer. In the past 10 years of my life, I have personally interacted with thousands of Christians, including missionaries - I have not come across a single Christian, who has passed this confirmatory test of the Bible. I have not come across a single Christian who took poison - I have not come across any who took poison, and who has not died. And in scientific terminology, this is also called as the ‘falsification test’ That means if a false person tries and does this test… takes poison, he will die. And a false person will not dare attempt this test - If you are not a true Christian believer, you will not dare attempt this test. Because you try and attempt the falsification test, you will fail. So a person who is not a true Christian believer, will never attempt this test. I have read the book ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of history and science’ written by Dr. William Campbell. And I assume - that he is a true Christian believer, and at least I would like him to confirm to me about the falsification test. Please be rest assured… Please be rest assured, I will not ask Dr. William Campbell to have deadly poison - Because I don’t want to jeopardize the debate. What I’ll do - I will only ask him to speak in foreign tongues… In new languages. And as many of you may be aware that India is a land, which has more than 1000 languages and dialects. Only thing I request him is, to say these 3 words… ‘One hundred rupees’, in the 17 official languages. There are only 17 official languages in India and to make it easier for Dr. William Campbell, I have got a ‘One hundred-rupee note.’ And this has all the 17 languages mentioned here. Besides English and Hindi, I will help him. I give him a beginning –‘Ek sav rupaiya, In Hindi.
The remaining 15 languages are here - I request him to read. I know the test says… ‘They will speak foreign languages on their own, without the help of reading’ - but I want to make the test easier, I want to see someone passing the test - I’ve not seen any one. So if he cannot say it on his own, or from his memory, at least read it. I don’t mind I’ll accept it. And I would request the chairperson to give it to Dr. William Campbell. He has his rebuttal - 15 languages, ‘Ek sav rupaiya’… 3 words only. What does the Bible say regarding ‘Hydrology’? Bible says in Genesis, Ch. No.9, Verse No.13 to 17, that… ‘After God, at the time of Noah submerged the world by flood, and after the flood’ subsided, He said… ‘I put up a rainbow in the sky as a promise to the humankind never to submerge the world again, by water. To the unscientific person it may be quite good… ‘Oh rainbow is a sign of Almighty God, never to submerge the world by flood again.’ But today we know very well, that rainbow is due to the refraction of sunlight, with rain or mist. Surely there must have been thousands of rainbows before the time of Noah, peace be upon him. To say it was not there before Noah’s time you have to assume that the law of refraction did not exist - which is unscientific.’ In the field of medicine, the Bible says in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.14, Verse No.49 to 53 - it gives a novel way for disinfecting a house from plague of leprosy… disinfecting a house from plague of leprosy. It says that… ‘Take two birds, kill one bird, take wood, scale it - and the other living bird, dip it in water… and under running water - later on sprinkle the house 7 times with it.
Sprinkle the house with blood to disinfect against plague of leprosy? You know blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, as well as toxin - I hope Dr. William Campbell does not use this method of disinfecting the OT, the operation theatre. It is mentioned in the book of Leveticus, Ch. No.12, Verse No.1 to 5, and we know medically, that after a mother gives birth to a child, the post-partal period, it is unhygienic. To say it is ‘unclean’, Religiously - I have got no objection. But Leviticus, Ch. No.12 Verse No.1 to 5, says that… ‘After a woman gives birth to a male child, she will be unclean for 7 days, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 33 days more. It she give birth to a female child, she will be unclean for two weeks, and the period of uncleanliness will continue for 66 days. In short, if a woman gives birth to a male child… ‘a son’, she is unclean for 40 days. If she gives birth to a female child… ‘a daughter’, she is unclean for 80 days. I would like Dr. William Campbell to explain to me scientifically, how come a woman remains unclean for double the period, if she gives birth to a female child, as compared to a male child. The Bible also has a very good test for adultery - How to come to know a woman has committed adultery, in the book of Numbers, Ch. no.5 Verse No..11 to 31. I’ll just say in brief. It says that… ‘The priest should take holy water in a vessel, take dust from the floor, and put it into the vessel - And that is the bitter water ‘And after cursing it, give it to the woman And if the woman has committed adultery, after she drinks it, the curse will enter her body, the stomach will swell, the thigh will rot, and she shall be cursed by the people. If the woman has not committed adultery, she will remain clean and she will bear the seed. A novel method of identifying whether a woman has committed adultery or not. You know today in the world, there are thousands of cases pending in different parts of the world, in different courts of law - only on the assumption that someone has alleged that a woman has committed adultery. I had read in the newspapers, and I came to know from the media, that the President of this great country Mr. Bill Clinton, he was involved in a sex scandal about 2 years back. I wonder, that why did not the American court use this ‘bitter water test’ for adultery? He would have gone scot-free immediately. Why did not the Christian missionaries of this great country, specially those who are in the medical field like my respected Dr. William Campbell, use this bitter water test to bail out their President, immediately. ‘Mathematics’ is a branch, which is closely associated with science, with which you can solve problems, etc. There are thousands of contradictions in the Bible - hundreds deal with mathematics, and I’ll first touch on few of them. It is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.1, and Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.6, the context that… ‘When the people returned from exile, from Babylon, when king Nebucheldeser of Babylon, when he released the men from Israel, they came back from captivity’ - and the list of the people are given. The list is given in Ezra, Ch. No.2, Verse No.2 to 63, and Nehemiah Ch. No.7, Verse No.7 up to 65; the list is given with the names as well as number of people released. In these 60 Verses there are no less than 18 times - the name is exactly the same but the number is different. There are no less than 18 contradictions in less than 60 Verses, of these two Chapters. This is the list - I don’t have time to run through the list - There are no less than 18 different contradictions in less than 60 Verses. Further it is mentioned in Ezra, Ch. No.2 Verse No.64 that… ‘The total congregation, if you add up… if you add up, it comes to 42,360.’ And if you read in Nehemiah, Ch. No.7, Verse No.66, there also the total is the same 42,360. But if you add up all these verses - which I had to do my homework - this is the list of Ezra… this is the list of Nehemiah. Ezra Ch. No 2, Nehemiah Ch. No 7 - If you add up - I had to do my homework…if you add up, Ezra Ch. No. 2 - It does not come to 42,360 - it comes to 29,818. And if you add up Nehemiah, Ch. No. 7, even then it does not come to 42,360 - It comes to 31,089. The author of the Bible, presumed to be ‘Almighty God’, does not know simple addition. If you give this problem, even to a person who has passed elementary school, he will be able to get the right answer. If you add up all the 60 Verses, it is so easy. Almighty God did not know adding – Nauzubillah… if we presume, that this is the word of God. Further if we read, in Ezra Ch. No. 2, Verse No. 65, it says…There were 200 singing men and women - Nehemiah Ch. No. 7, Verse No. 67…‘There were 245 singing men and women.’ Were they 200 - or were they 245 singing men and women? Context is the same - A mathematical contradiction. It is mentioned in the 2nd Kings, Ch. No 24, Verse No 8, that…‘Jehoiachin was 18 years old, when he began to reign Jerusalem, and he reigned for 3 months and 10 days. 2nd Chronicles, Ch. No 36, Verse No 9, says that…‘Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign and he reigned for 3 months, 10 days. Was Jehoiachin 18 years when he began to reign, or was he 8 years old? Did he reign for 3 months, or did he reign for 3 months 10 days? Further it is mentioned in the 1st Kings, Ch. No 7, Verse No 26, that…‘In Solomon’s temple, in his molten sea, he had 2000 baths. In 2nd Chronicles, Ch. No 4, Verse No 5, he had 3000 baths. Did he have 2000 baths or did he have 3000 baths? – That, I leave it upon Dr. William Campbell to decide which is correct. There is a clear-cut mathematical contradiction. Further more it is mentioned in the First Kings, Ch. No. 15, Verse No. 33, that… ‘Basha, he died in the 26th year of reign of Asa.’ And 2nd Chronicles Ch. No 16, Verse No 1, says that…‘Basha invaded Judah in the 36th years of the reign of Asa.’ How can Basha invade 10 years after his death? - It is unscientific. To make it easier for Dr. William Campbell, to answer to the points I have raised, I will just mention it in brief -The points that I mentioned. The first point was that -‘The creation of the Earth and the Heaven - the universe was in six, 24-hour days. Light was then before the source of light - Point No. 2. Three - Day came into existence before creation of Earth. Point No. 4 - Earth came into existence before Sun. Point No. 5 - Vegetation came into existence, before sunlight Point No. 6 - Light of the Moon is its own light. Point No. 7 - The earth - Will it perish or will it abide forever? Point No. 8 - The earth has got pillars. Point No. 9 - The heavens have got pillars. Point No. 10 - God said… ‘You can have all plants and all vegetation, including the poisonous plants?’ Point No. 11 - The scientific test the falsification test, of Mark, Ch. No. 16, Verse No. 17 and 18. Point No. 12 - A woman remains unclean for double the period, if she gives birth to a daughter, as compared to a son. Point No. 13 - Using blood to disinfect the house, against plague of leprosy. Point No. 14 – How do you find out the bitter water test for adultery? Point No. 15 - Eighteen different contradictions in less than 60 Verses of Ezra, Ch. 2, and Nehemiah, Ch. 7. I did not count them as 18 different - I counted them only as one. Point No. 16 - The total is different is both the chapters. Point No. 17 - Are there 200 singing men and women, or are there 245 singing men and women? Point No. 18 - Was Jehoiachin 18 years old, or was he 8 years old when he began to reign? Point No. 19 - Did he reign for 3 months, or 3 months 10 days. Point No. 20 - Did Solomon had 3000 baths, or 2000 baths? Point No. 21 - Is that Basha, how could he invade Judah, 10 years after his death? Point No. 22 is - Almighty God - He said, I put up a rainbow in the sky, as a promise to the human kind, never to submerge the world again by water. I have listed only 22, out of the hundreds available unscientific points in the Bible… scientific errors - And I request Dr. William Campbell to answer them. And irrespective whether he uses the ‘concordance approach’ or the ‘conflict approach’… as long as he is logical, he will never be able to prove scientifically, all these 22 aspects I have told him. We agree in Jesus Christ peace be upon him - to him was revealed the Injeel. This is not the Injeel - It may contain part of God - But the other unscientific portion is not the word of God. I would like to end my talk by giving the quotation of the Glorious Qur’an, from Surah Baqarah, Ch. No. 2, Verse 79 …. (Arabic)…. ‘Woe to those who write the book with their own hands, and then say this is from Allah, to traffic with it for a miserable price. Woe to those for what they write, woe to those for what they earn.’ Wa Aakim Dawana Anil Hamdulillahi Rabbil Aalameen .
(Dr. Mohammed) I would request the audience to bear with us, and maintain due decorum, for the continuation of this dialogue. Now I call upon Dr. William Campbell to present his response, to Dr. Zakir Naik.
(Dr. William Campbell) Well Dr. Naik has brought up some real problems - And there are also these problems that he has said. I do not deny them, and I don’t have good answers for them. But I will tell about… (Clapping)… We are going to make a mathematical study of prophesies - called the theory of probabilities. Estimate … and we will estimate the possibility, that these prophesies could be fulfilled by chance.
(Dr. Mohammed) I now call upon Dr. Zakir Naik, to present his response to Dr. William Campbell.
(Dr. Zakir) Dr. William Campbell only touched on 2, out of the 22 points I made - only 2. You can only solve 2 problems. The ‘six day creation problem’, and ‘first day light came’, and ‘the third day, Earth’ - But the remaining four problems, yet is there. So Dr. William Campbell chose to say ‘Days are long period’- and out of 6, he solved 2 scientific errors. The remaining 4 of ‘the creation of the universe’ , he does agree to it -That is good. The King James Version, as well as the New International Version, which Dr. William Campbell refers to… ‘Drink deadly poison’ – ‘Not eat’… ‘Drink.’ Dr. William Campbell does not know there are Indians out here - Surely many may know Gujarati, Marathi - Even I know. If I ask you… ‘Shu che….?’ Dr. William Campbell did not reply to my 20 points, and he started speaking about ‘Prophesy.’ What has ‘Prophesy’ to do with ‘Science in the Bible.’ If ‘Prophesy’ is the test - But even if there is one unfulfilled prophesy, the whole Bible is disproved to the word of God. I can give you a list of unfulfilled prophecies - According to your theory of… theory of probability, Bible is not the word of God. Irrespective whether you use the ‘conflict approach’ or the ‘concordance approach’ , if your logical, you will not be able to take out a single Verse of the Qur’an, which is contradicting - Neither a single Verse which is against the established science. If Dr. William Campbell cannot understand the Qur’an - That does not mean, Qur’an is wrong. Bible says in Job, Ch. No. 10, Verse No. 9 and 10 that… ‘We have made the human beings from clay, like poured out milk and curdled cheese.’ ‘Poured out milk and curdled cheese’… is the exact plagerization from Hypocrites.
(Q) Yes, I would like to pose this question, or rather this test to Dr. William Campbell. Why don’t you attempt the falsification test of the Bible, given in the book of Mark, Ch. 16, Verses 17 and 18, and prove to the audience here right now, that you are a true Christian believer?
(Q) My question is to Dr. Zakir Naik. The Christians explain the concept of ‘trinity’ scientifically, by giving the example of water, which can be in there states - solid , liquid and gas, in the form of ice, water and vapour. Similarly one God, is a triune God - Father , Son and Holy ghost. Is this explanation scientifically correct?
(Dr. Zakir) The word ‘trinity’ is not there in the Bible, but it is there is the Qur’an.
(Q) Dr. Zakir, you said… there is not any mistake in Qur’an. I see more than 20 mistakes in Arabic grammar, and I will tell you some of them. ….(Arabic) …. He said in Baqarah. And then in Haj ….(Arabic) .…Which is right - ‘assabeun’ or ‘assabreen.’ ‘Number 1 and number 2’... He said.
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother, one question at a time please.
(Q) Ya .. Since …the thing …. He said in Surah Taha, 63 …. (Arabic) ….Mistake ! …. (Arabic) ….Can you explain that ?
(Dr. Zakir) And the book he is referring to is by Abdul Faadi. Abdul Faadi… Correct ?… ‘Is the Qur’an infallible?’ I can see something ….ya…. Alhamdulillah my eye sight is good.
(Q) Dr. Campbell, since you are a medical doctor, could you please explain scientifically, the various medical aspects, that in the Bible, regarding - because you did not answer them in your rebuttal. , For example… Blood used as a disinfectant , Bitter water test for adultery, and most importantly , that the woman is unclean for double the period, when she gives birth to a daughter, than as compared to a son.
(Q) Okay Dr. Campbell, if you cannot answer the contradictions in Genesis, regarding ‘Creation’ - don’t you think that proves that the Bible is unscientific, and therefore not from God?
(Dr. Campbell) I admit that I have some problems with this.
(Dr. Zakir) The Muslim yard stick ‘the Qur’an’, is far superior to your yard stick ‘the science’ - therefore you should believe in Qur’an, which is far superior.
(Q) Dr. Campbell agreed to Dr. Naik, that the errors he showed are not wrong, and that he cannot answer them. So does this mean that Dr. Campbell agrees that the Bible has errors - so it is not the word of God ?
(Dr. Campbell) There are things in the Bible that I cannot explain - that I do not have any answer for now.
(Dr. Zakir) How can a son be two years older than the father? Believe me, even… even in Hollywood film, you will not be able to produce it.
The Qur'an and the Bible
in the light of Science
Dr Zakir Naik and Dr. William Campbell
(Dr. Mohammed) Now I call upon Dr. William Campbell to present his response to Dr. Zakir Naik.
(Dr. William Campbell) Well, Dr. Naik has brought up some real problems. I do not agree with his answer about the Qur’an, in times of the alaqa and mudga - I still think it is a big problem. But that is his opinion and my opinion. So everybody will have to go home and think about it themselves. He spoke about…‘He has not met any person that took the poison test.’ I cannot present the person, because he has already gone to be with the Lord. But I have friend Harry Rancliff, and he lived in a town in the South of Morocco - and one of his people who he thought was a friend, invited him over for a lunch…For a dinner, and he invited the wife and son also. So when Harry agreed to go, somebody came and knocked on the door and said…‘The man is gonna poison you.’ So they went - Harry took this very verse which you read, and he decided that he should go, because he had said he would. So he went, he waited, hoping to find a time when the man brought in the ‘Kuskus’, he could turn away… the man would go out, and he could turn the ‘Kuskus’ around. But there was no such time - So he dug in, and he ate. His wife was too…she was not able to eat very much - and they had fed their son before they went. But Harry ate, and that night Harry got pains in his stomach, and he had some blood - but he lived. And so two days later he went, knocked on the door - The man came, and opened the door, and his face went absolutely white – And Harry thanked him for the meal. I thought, so I give you this one example any way. Now you have said about - Jesus was only sent to the Jews….‘Only go to the Jews and not to the Gentiles. Well in the Qur’an itself, it talks about Mary - And then she says…‘I do not know any man,’ in Surah No.19: 21. And then it says that…‘Jesus is to be a sign unto men, and a mercy from us.’
Irf_Proxy/data/serverlatest(created Aug 1099)/Dr.Zakir/Dr.Zakir/Verbatim lecture of Dr.Zakir Naik/Qur’an & the Bible in the light of Science
In Mathew 4:9…‘A lady came and anointed Jesus’ feet. He said…‘Whenever this…wherever this Gospel is preached in the whole world - what this woman has done will be told.’ And in Mathew 28, when Jesus is about to ascend into heaven, he says… ‘Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.’ But this is not a contradiction. He did say to his disciples…‘Go only to the Jews’ because the Jews were given a certain chance. There is a story in the Bible – should not use the word ‘story’ I suppose - It were history - Where Jesus came to a fig tree. And the fig tree had brought no fruit for 3 years - And so then…it…the…said…‘Shall I tear it down?’ And then Jesus’ answer was…‘No - Leave it one more year, and it will fertilize, and see if it brings any fruit.’ This was all a parable about Israel - He had preached to them 3 years and he would preach an another half. But then there are other parables and he told, where he said…‘All right - It will be taken away from you…the blessing, and given to the Gentiles.’
(Pause and Clapping)
Dr. Naik has talked about ‘the day’ and ‘the periods.’ ‘The day’ in the Bible also can have the time of ‘a long period’ - Doesn’t have to be 24 hours, as Dr. Bucaille wanted to insist in his book. And I believe that it was long periods of time. And there are also these problems that he has said - and I do not deny them, and I do not have good answers for them.
But I will tell about….He spoke about the two kinds of salt - The sweet water and the salt water - I do not agree with his explanation. The Qur’an says as…‘The God has let free the two barriers…two bodies of flowing water, meeting together - Between them is a barrier which they do not transgress. Then which of the favours of thy Lord will you deny.’ The word used here for ‘barrier’ is ‘barzak’…means ‘interval’, or ‘gap’ or ‘break’ or ‘bar’ or ‘obstruction’ or ‘isthmus’. The same information is given in Al-Furqan 25:53…‘It is He who has let free the two bodies of flowing water, one palatable and sweet, and the other salty and bitter. And He made between them a barrier, and a partition that it is forbidden to pass.’ The phrase…‘A partition that it is forbidden to pass’, represents two words from the same root. This is done in Arabic to stress or accept whatever is being discussed. The word ‘hijr’ means ‘forbidden’, ‘interdicted’, ‘prohibited.’ - All very strong words. And the second word, which is the last participle of the verb, has the same meanings. Therefore very literally, one might translate this as…‘He, God made between them a bar, and a forbidden…forbidding.’ Dr. Bucaille discusses this briefly and then he says - though he admits at the end…Well it mixes far out to see. A scientist friend commenting on this said…‘It is simply that the salt and fresh water, are physically separated. The effluent from the river displacing the seawater - But there is no barrier. Thermodynamically the mixing is a spontaneous, immediate process, highly favored by entropy. The only barrier is canonic. It takes a long time for that much stuff to mix. I myself have had a tiny example of this - I had a friend in Tunisia and he used to hunt for Octopus. So I went there once, and I jumped out of the boat and was swimming around, and it was right at the where, a small creek came in - and the top water was cold and the bottom water was hot. I thought…How can this be - the top is cold and the bottom is hot? Then I realized, the cold water was coming out of the river, and the salt water is heavy. So the salt water was at the bottom and the cold light water was at the top - So there is…but there is no barrier ?
Dr. Naik spoke about languages - and off course I am not able to answer about the languages in India. Well I could not answer about the Indian languages in America either - So it is no difference between India and America. However, the place that he talks about in the Bible…the disciples were given languages, as a miracle. But they were the many languages that the people who were there knew - They were not weak languages that were unknown. If somebody came from Spain - an Apostle spoke to that person in his language from Spain. If another person came from Turkey, a different apostle spoke to the other person in his language, from Turkey. I am going to go to something that I had prepared to give, and talk about ‘Witnesses.’ In Deuteronomy, God told Moses…‘The way to know true Prophet was - Did his prophecy come true?’ - Elijah is an example. Elias in the Qur’an…He went to the king, and he told him…‘It is not going to rain till I say so.’ And so for 6 months and no rain, a year and no rain. Once in Tunisia there was a whole year and no rain. Then 2 years there was no rain, then 3 years, then 3 and a half years. And then Elaijah went to the king and he said…‘We gonna have a contest.’ - And they went up on Mount Carmel and they had this contest - And the king lost. And in the Qur’an, it says that…‘Elias had…. waged a wonderful victory. But then Elias fell down on his knees - Elaijah and he prayed for rain and the rain came. Well, Elaijah is the first witness. When he said…‘It is not going to rain till I say so’- he was the first witness. When God made the rain come, when Elaijah fell down on his knees, God Himself was the second witness. Another example is Isaiah, 750 B.C. - The Jews were sent into exile. He prophesied they will be sent to exile, and then Cyrus would bring them back. Cyrus…who is Cyrus? 250 years later, Cyrus the Persian pagan king, sent the Jews back to Israel… back to Palestine - And there is a Cyrus cylinder in London, that talks about it. So you can ask a question…‘Did Jesus fulfill prophecies? …Did Jesus do miracles? …Did Jesus make prophecies?
We are going to make a mathematical study of Prophesies - It is called the theory of probabilities. And we will estimate the possibility that these prophecies could be fulfilled by chance. An example of this is - Supposing Dr. Naik has ten shirts, and I know he has a red shirt. And I say…‘Tomorrow he is going to wear the red shirt.’ And tomorrow he does… So then I say… ‘I am a Prophet.’ All of my friends is gonna say…‘No, no, that just happened by chance.’ Well then, supposing Dr. Samuel Nauman - he has two pairs of shoes and a pair of sandals. So then the next day, I prophesize what shirt Dr. Naik is going to wear, and I prophesize that Dr. Samuel Nauman is going to wear his sandals, and Dr. Sabeel Ahmed, he has 5 hats, and I say his going to wear his turban. Well what are the chances that I could have all of these rights, by chance? - Oh! Gone away. Anyway… all right - You multiply 1 over 10, by 1 over 5, by 1over 3, and you get 1 over a hundred and fifty - And that is my chance of getting it by luck. Is it possible to have the slide projected down please? I mean… the screen down. Well, the time is going, and we are going to look at 10 prophecies - And then one, which we will not count, because of the we want to prove. The first one is Prophesies in Jeremiah…Prophesy in Jeremiah 600 BC - that the Messiah must be from the prosterity of David. ‘The days are coming…declares the Lord - when I will raise up to David a righteous friend - a king who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. He will be called the Lord Yahowah, or righteousness. And the fulfillment was in the 6th month - The angel Gabriel was sent from God, to Mary. The Angel said to her: Do not be afraid Mary - Behold you will conceive in your womb, and bear a son. He will be called Jesus - He will be great and will be called the son of the Most High. And the Lord God, will give to him the throne of his father David, and in his kingdom there will be no end.’ And the angel said to her…‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High, will overshadow you - Therefore the child to be born will be called, holy. Well, when David was first…. he was just from a small family. But after be became king, and his family was known, then everybody would remember that there was a fifth cousin of the king. So I am going to assume that 1 in 200 Jewish people, belonged to the family of David.
The second prophecy is – everlasting ruler to be born in Bethlehem. Micah, 750 B.C…‘But you O Bethlehem, Ephrathah who are little to be among the clans of Judah - from you shall come forth for me, one who is to be ruler in Israel - whose origin is from of old from ancient days.’ And the fulfillment - Though Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth, because of an order from Ceaser Agustus, Joseph had to take Mary to Bethlehem, his native town. In the fulfillment it says…‘And Joseph also went up from Galilee, from the city of Nazareth, to Judea, to the city of David, which is called Bethlehem - because he was of the house and lineage of David. And while there, she gave birth to her first born son. Well what is the chance of being born in Bethlehem? There is about 2 billion people were born in the world, from Micah until now, and 7000 live in Bethlehem. So one man, out of every 280 thousand, men was born in Bethlehem. The 3rd prophecy – A messenger will prepare the way for the Messiah. This was done by Malachi, in Chapter No. 3 : 1, in 400 B.C…‘Behold I send my messenger, to prepare the way before me - and the lord whom you seek, will suddenly - come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant is in whom you delight - Behold he is coming, says the Lord of hosts.’ The fulfillment - The next day - John the Baptist…Yahya ibn Zakariya saw Jesus coming toward him and said…‘Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!’ This is he of whom I said…‘After me comes a man who ranks before me - for he was before me.’ And to this the Qur’an agrees also in the story of, The Family of Imran, 3 : 39 - 45, when it says…‘Yahya is to come ‘witnessing the truth of a word from God’ whose name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.’ Well how many leaders had a forerunner? - Well it is hard to say. I put down 1 man in a 1000 was a leader, who had a forerunner.
The fourth prophesy…The Messiah will do many signs and miracles. In Isaiah, 750 we read…‘Say to those with fearful hearts - Be strong and do not fear - Your God will come and he will save you. Then will the eyes of the blind be opened, and the ears of the deaf be unstopped, then will the lame leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb, shout for joy. The fulfillment: The Gospel states, as does the Qur’an, that Jesus did many miracles. The Bible speaks of only 4 Prophets who did many miracles - Moses, Elaijah Elaisha and Jesus. Jesus is the only one that did all four types of miracles mentioned in the prophecy - and he sometimes healed all who came to him. Well since many Muslims believe that there were 1,24,000 Prophets, we will use that number and say that Jesus was the one man, in a 1,24,000. The fifth Prophesy: Inspite of these signs, his brothers were against him. In the song of David, a 1000 B.C, he says… “I have become a stranger to my brother, an alien to my mother’s sons.” And in John he gives the fulfillment…‘So his brothers said to him leave here and go to Judea for even his brothers did not believe in him.’ A question might be - One ruler in how many will have find his family against him? Well, many kings were overthrown by their own relatives - Therefore we will say, 1 in 5, or 2 times 10 to the first power. And the 6th Prophecy: It is given by Zakaria in 520 B.C…’Rejoice straightly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem. Behold your king come into you: he is just and having salvation - lowly and riding upon an ass.’ The fulfillment…‘The next day, the great crowd took some palm branches and went out to meet him shouting, Hosanna. ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed is the king of Israel! And Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it. Well obviously, Jesus chose to sit upon the donkey - that is no miracle - It is nothing unusual. But the crowd was there and the crowd came and praised him and said… ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ Well, how many rulers entered Jerusalem…how many rulers entered Jerusalem on a donkey? Nowadays he come on a Mercedes. Well one ruler… I said one ruler in a hundred. The Seventh prophecy: Jesus foretells the destruction of the temple - He himself gave the prophecy - So Jesus said this sometime in 30 A.D. And as Jesus was going out of the temple, one of his disciples said him… ‘Teacher, behold what wonderful stones, and what wonderful buildings.’ And Jesus said to him… ‘Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, which will not be thrown down.’ In the fulfillment: About 40 years later in 70 A.D, the Roman General Titus, captured Jerusalem after a long siege. Titus had intended to spare the temple, but the Jews set it on fire. Well, for the Jews to revolt and then be crushed would be common - So I said 1 chance in 5. For the eight prophecies - The Messiah will be crucified. In Psalms, David wrote in 1000 B.C…‘A band of evil men has - encircled me - They have pierced my hand and my feet.’ Well, Jesus…. David did not die this way. He died in his bed - His feet and hands were not pierced. Luke gives us the fulfillment…‘When they came to the place called ‘The skull’, there they crucified Jesus along with the criminals - One on his right, the other on his left.’ Our question is - One man in how many, has been crucified? Well I said, one man in 10,000. The prophecy 9 - They will divide his garments, and cast lot for his robe. Again this is David speaking…‘They divided my garments among them, and cast lots for my clothing.’ Well, John gives us the fulfillment in Chapter 19…‘When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the under garment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece, from top to bottom. Let us not tear it they said – Let us decide by lot who will get it. Well, how many criminals would have a seamless garment? Well you can make your own decision - But I said one in a 100.
(Pause and Clapping)
The 10th prophecy – ‘Though innocent, he would be counted with the wicked and with the rich, in his death. Isaiah said in 750 B.C…‘He was assigned a grave, with the wicked and with the rich in his death. Though he had done no violence nor was any deceit in his month, he was numbered with the transgressors.’ Mathew gives the fulfillment…‘They crucified two robbers with him. As evening approached there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph - a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus’ body. Joseph wrapped it in a clean linen cloth and placed it in his own tomb.’ Well, how many executed criminals were innocent? Well I said - One man in 10. And how many innocent men or how many criminals were buried with the rich? I said - One man in a hundred. That gives 1 in a thousand. Finally the prophecy… After dying, he will rise from the dead. In Isaiah again, it says…‘For he was cut off from the land of the living. He died, and though the Lord makes his life guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days. So there is a prophecy, that he will be come back to life. Luke tells us Jesus himself stood among them and said to them…‘Peace be with you.’ And then Paul gives us a summary in 1st Corin thains 15, that Jesus appeared to Peter and then to the twelve. After that he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living - then to James… Jesus’ half brother, then to all the apostles. Well that is not something you can give a value to. So now we are going to look at the calculation. One man in how many men the world over, will fulfill all ten prophecies? This question can be answered by multiplying all of our estimates. I do not have time to read them but the answer is one chance in 2 times. 2.78 times 10, to the 28. 28 zeros. Let us simplify and reduce the number, by calling it 1 times 10 to the 28. The best information available in the case of number of men who ever lived to be - about 88 billion. We call that, 1 times 10 to the eleven. By dividing these two numbers, we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time, and fulfilled all 10 prophesies by luck is 1 in 10 to the 17. That is written out this way, with seventeen zeroes.’ Well let us try and imagine - this. If you took the state of Texas and you covered it with dollar coins, one meter deep, 3 feet deep, several dollars, and then one coin was marked electrically. And then I say there, go walk out into the state of Texas and pick the right coin. That is your chance of picking the right coin by chance. In other words it is no chance.
I am having trouble… Just a minute. There are many more prophecies - These all show, the Prophet David or Isaiah is the first witness - God causing fulfillment, is the second witness. And God caused the disciples of Jesus to write it down - These are all proofs that the Bible is true and from Yehowah Elohim. The Gospel says that…‘Jesus came from God, and paid the penalty for our sins’ - This is good news. The Qur’an has hard news - Surah Nahl 16:61 says…‘If Allah were to punish men for their wrongdoing, He will not leave on earth, a single living creature.’ The problem is that the Qur’an states very clearly that even those who have done their best are given only a - ‘may be.’ In the Surah of the Narration, Al-Qasas it says… ‘Perhaps for him who shall repent, and believe and do right, perhaps ‘asahan’… he may be one of the successful.’ In ‘The Forbidding’…Al-Tahrim it says…‘O you who believe, repent toward Allah with a sincere repentance - It maybe that your Lord would get back from you, your evil deeds.’ In the Surah of ‘Repentance’ – ‘Al Tauba’, it says…‘Those only shall worship in the mosques of Allah, who believe in Allah and the last day, and observe proper worship, and give alms and fear none except Allah, and it might be that these are the rightly guided.’ In the end it is very lonely - If a person does not believe, then he is sure to go to hell. But if he does believe, on the day of judgement he stands there all by himself in front of Allah. There is no intercessor or friend, and he can only hope that, may be, perhaps, he might be, among the blessed. This is hard news - where in this dictionary if translates, ‘as asahan’, ‘it might be’, ‘it could be’, ‘that, possibly’, ‘may be’, ‘perhaps.’ In the Oxford dictionary, English to Arabic, ‘perhaps’ is translated as ‘asahan’ - this may be true but it is hard. On the other hand the Gospel has good news - Jesus said…‘I did not come to be served, but to serve - to give my life a ransom for many. Another Verse from Paul the apostle says…‘If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved straight out’ - This is wonderful good news. You read with me these fulfilled prophecies as proofs. There were 500 people who saw Christ, after he rose from the dead. There are many archeological finds, confirming the Bible. I urge you get a copy of the Bible… of the Gospel - Read it. You will find good news for your soul. May God bless you all - Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) I now call upon Dr. Zakir Naik to present his response to Dr. William Campbell.
(Dr. Zakir) …(Arabic)… Respected Dr. William Campbell, the other people on the dais, my respected elders and my dear brothers and sisters, I welcome all of you once again with the Islamic greetings… As Salaam Wa Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu. May peace mercy and blessings of Almighty God be on all of you. Dr. William Campbell only touched on 2, out of the twenty-two points I made - only two.
The first point he raised was he thinks that ‘the days’ mentioned in the Bible - he refers to as long periods. I already gave the reply in my talk, that if you consider ‘days’ to be ‘long periods’, like the Qur’an, you can only solve two problems - The ‘six-day creation problem, and 1st day light came, and 3rd day earth.’ The remaining four problems, yet is there. So Dr. William Campbell chose to say… ‘Days are long period.’ And out of 6, he solved 2 scientific errors - the remaining four… ‘Of the creation of the universe he does agree it -That is good . And he says it is difficult to answer. The second point he touched on, was regarding the scientific test of Mark Chapter No 16, Verse No 17 & 18, and he said… ‘One of his friend by the name of Harry, whatever the name was, in Morocco… in Morocco - he ate ‘khuskhus.’ The Bible says, the King James Version, as well as the New International Version which Dr. William Campbell refers to ‘drink deadly poison’… not eat – ‘drink.’
Yet, yet, I do not mind - Even if a person eats deadly poison also, no problem. But imagine one man in Morocco I am told there are 2 billion Christians in the world - No one can come forward, one out of the 2 billion? And I thought Dr. William Campbell was a true Christian believer, and I asked him to pass the test not his friend, who already died.
And he said that… ‘Blood came out of the mouth.’ Dr. William Campbell, and even I know very well, being medical doctors, that having poison - blood comes out, and we cure many people of poison - So what is so great test is, that you should come forward, and do all these things, and yet you should be able to speak foreign tongues. And Dr. William Campbell said that, at that time if you read Gospel of Mark, Chapter 16, those people there, they spoke the languages people knew, and foreign tongues. Dr William Campbell does not know there are Indians out here - Surely many may know Gujrathi, Marathi - even I know. If I ask you… ‘Shu Cheh? Suppose if I ask you… if I ask you in a particular language… ‘Neer kud’. ‘Neer Kud’… Tamil – No reply. Foreign tongues… ‘Neer Kud’…. Anyone knows Tamil or Malalayam?
(Dr. Zakir) Yes, very good! Are you a Christian believer? … No I am asking that person there you are a Muslim? Any way fine, this was supposed to be a test passed by Christian believers. There are many people who know foreign languages out here. Only thing you had to do was speak to them like…‘What is your name? … How are you? For example, ‘Kaifa haaluka’, in Arabic, which you know - New languages which you did not know - And you have proved my point. And yet I have not come across a single Christian, who has passed this test in front of me - Not a single, out of the thousands I have met personally - And now it can be 1001, after meeting Dr. William Campbell - Only touched two points. Dr William Campbell did not reply to my twenty points, and he started speaking about ‘Prophecy.’ What has ‘Prophecy’ to do with science in the Bible? If ‘Prophecy’ is the test… if ‘Prophecy’, is the test, then Nosterdamas’ book, should be the best book. Nostradamas’ book should be the best book, to be called…‘the word of God’ - It is right. He spoke about the ‘Theory of probability.’ For the definition of ‘Theory of probability’ - how you can analyze with the Qur’an with scientific facts, refer to my video cassette, ‘Is the Qur’an God’s word.’ It is available in the foyer. I have proved scientifically, how can you use ‘Theory of probability.’ Dr. William Campbell used it on the basis of ‘Prophecy.’ If I want, I can try and prove his prophecies wrong - I do not want to do it. I will take it for granted for the sake of argument, using the concordance approach, that whatever prophecies he said, was right - for the sake of argument. But even if there is one unfulfilled prophecy, the whole Bible is disproved to be the word of God - I can give you a list of unfulfilled prophecies. For example if you read Genesis, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 12, it says… ‘God told Cain: you will never be able to settle you will be a wanderer.’ Few Verses later on Genesis, Chapter No.4, Verse No.17, says…‘Cain built up a city’ – unfulfilled prophecy. If you read Jeremiah, Chapter No.36, Verse No.30, it says that…‘Jehoiachin the father of Jehoiachin… no one will be able to sit on his throne - The throne of David, no one will be able to sit after Jehoiachin.’ If you read later on, II Kings, Chapter No 24, Verse No 6, it says that… ‘Jehoiachin after he died, later on Jehoiachin sat on the throne’ - Unfulfilled prophecy. One is sufficient to prove it is not the word of God - I can give plenty. If you read Ezekiel, Chapter No 26, it says that…‘Nebuchader, he will destroyed Tyre.’ We come to know that Alexander the great, was the person who destroyed Tyre - Unfulfilled prophecy. Isaiah, Chapter No. 7, Verse No 14, says, prophesying of…‘The coming of a person who will be born to a virgin - his name shall be Emmanuel.’ They say… the Christians - it refers to Jesus Christ peace be upon him. Born to a virgin - the Hebrew word there is ‘amla’, which means not ‘a virgin’- ‘a young lady.’ The word for ‘virgin’ in Hebrew is, ‘baitula’, which is not there. Even if you agree - we are using concordance - we agree… ‘Virgin’… ‘Virgin’ - No problem. It says… ‘He will be called Immanuel.’ No where in the Bible is Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is called as Immanuel - Unfulfilled prophecy. I can give several, plenty unfulfilled prophecies - One is sufficient to prove the Bible wrong - I have given a few. According to your theory of… theory of probability - Bible is not the word of God. Dr. William Campbell said that…‘According to the Qur’an, Elaijah won the battle - according to the Bible, Elaijah lost the battle’ - Whatever it is. That does not mean that Bible is correct and Qur’an is wrong. If the statements differ in the Bible and the Qur’an, you are assuming Bible is the word of God. If both are supposed to be analyzed, it can be possible that Qur’an is right, and Bible is wrong. It can be possible Bible is right, and Qur’an is wrong. It can be possible both are wrong. It can be possible both are right. So what we have to do, if we have to analyze which of the two is wrong, you have to get a third source from outside, which is authentic. Just because Bible says…‘Elaijah lost’ - and Qur’an says…‘Elaijah won’ - therefore Qur’an is wrong – it is illogical. And Dr. William Campbell, besides replying to scientific errors I had mentioned – I will just touch on the points which I could not due to lack of time. There are an additional 6 or 7 points, which he mentioned in his talk, which InshaAllah; I will give the reply briefly. He spoke that the Qur’an says…according to me - and he showed my cassette according to Br. Shabbir Ali that…The light of the moon is reflected light.’ And he said… ‘It doesn’t mean that.’ I am quoting again… ‘The Qur’an mentions in Surah Furqan, Chapter No.25, Verse No.61 that… ‘Blessed is He who has placed in the sky constellation, placed there in lamp… ‘Sun’ and ‘moon’ having ‘borrowed light’… ‘Munir.’ Arabic word used for ‘moon’ is ‘Qamar’ - It is always described as ‘Munir’ or ‘Nur’ meaning ‘reflection of light.’ Arabic word used for ‘sun’ is ‘Shams’ - It is always described as ‘wahad’ ‘dia’, which means ‘a blazing torch’, ‘A shining glory.’ And I can give references Surah Nur, Chapter No.71 Verse.15 and 16, Surah Yunus, Chapter No.10 Verse No.5 and so on. And he said that if it means ‘a reflection of light’, - and he quoted the Qur’an, Surah Al-Nur Chapter No.24, Verse No.35 and 36 that… ‘Allah Subhanawataala is ‘Nuras samawati wal ardz’. ‘Is the light of the heavens and the earth.’ Read the complete verse, and analyze what does it says. It says… ‘Allah is the light’… ‘Nur.’ It says… ‘Allah is the light of the Heavens and the Earth.’ It is a similitude - like a niche, and within the niche there is lamp. The ‘lamp… word is there. So Allah Subhanawataala has got light of its own, and even reflected light. Like you see a halogen lamp - you know which are here. The lamp inside is like a ‘siraj’ but the reflector is like moon - it is reflecting light. The lamp, the tube… the tube is having a light of its own, but the reflector of the halogen lamp is reflecting light - So both two in one. So Allah Subhanawataala, Alhamdulillah…besides having light of its own - as the Qur’anic verse says… In the niche there is a lamp, and that lamp light of Allah Subhanawataala, is its own light, and Allah reflects its own light. Dr. William Campbell says that… ‘The Qur’an says that… ‘Qur’an is nur’… It is reflecting light.’ Of course - The Qur’an is reflecting the light and the guidance of Allah Subhanawataala. Regarding Prophet Mohammed Sallallahu alaihi wasallam being Siraj - Yes he is. The Hadith of the beloved Prophet is giving guidance to us. So Muhammad Sallallahu alaihi wassallam – he is also ‘nur’ he is also ‘Siraj’- Alhamdullillah. He has his own knowledge also - Alhamdulillah. He has the guidance from Allah Subhanawataala-Alhamdulillah. So if you use this word ‘Nur’ as reflected light, and Munir as reflected light, yet Alhamdulillah, you can prove it scientifically that the light of the moon is not its own light, but it is the reflected light. The other points, Dr. William Campbell raised was regarding Surah Kahf Chapter No.18, Verse No.86, that… ‘Zulqarnain sees the sun setting in murky water… in turbid water - Imagine sun setting in murky water… unscientific.’ The Arabic word used here is… it is 'wajada' meaning, ‘it appeared to Zulqarnain.’ And Dr. William Campbell knows Arabic. So 'wajada' means - if you look up in the dictionary also, it means it appeared.’ So Allah Subhanawataala is describing what appeared to Zulqarnain. If I make a statement that… ‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ And you say… ‘Oh Zakir said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5. I did not say. I am telling…‘The student in the class said, 2 plus 2 is equal to 5.’ I am not wrong - The student is wrong. There are various ways to try and analyze this verse. One is this way - according to Muhammad Asad, that 'wajada' means… ‘It appeared to’… ‘It appeared to Zulqarnain.’ Point no.2 - The Arabic word used is 'Magrib' - It can be used for time, as well as place. When we say ‘sunset’ – ‘sunset’ can be taken for time. If I say… ‘The sun sets at 7 p.m.’; I am using it for time. If I say… ‘The ‘Sun sets in the West’, it means I am taking it for place. So here if we use the word 'Magrib' for time. So Zulqarnain did not reach that place of sunset - used - as time - He reached at the time of sun set. The problem is solved. Further more, you can solve them in various ways. Even if Dr. William Campbell says… ‘No No, the basic assumption is too much - It is not… ‘Appeared to’… it is actually this.’ Let us analyze it further. The Qur'anic verse says… the Sun set in murky water.’ Now we know, when we use these words, like ‘sunrise’ and ‘sunset’ - does the sunrise? Scientifically, sun does not rise - neither does the sunset. We know scientifically, that the sun does not set at all. It is the rotation of the earth, which gives rise to sunrise and sunset. But yet you read in the everyday papers mentioning, sunrise at 6 a.m. sun sets at 7.00 p.m. Oh! The newspapers are wrong – Unscientific!’ If I use the word ‘Disaster’, Oh! There is a disaster’ – ‘Disaster’ means there is some calamity which has taken place. Literally, ‘disaster’ means ‘an evil star.’ So when I say… ‘This disaster’ every one knows what I mean is ‘a calamity’, not about the evil star.’ Dr. William Campbell and I know, when a person who is mad, we call him a lunatic - Yes or no? At least I do, and I believe Dr. William Campbell also will be doing that. We call a person ‘a lunatic’ – He is ‘mad.’ What is the meaning of ‘lunatic’? It means… ‘struck by the moon’ - But that is how the language has evolved. Similarly sun rise, is actually, it is just a usage of words. And Allah has given the guidance for the human beings also - He uses so, that we understand. So it is just ‘sunset’ - Not that it is actually setting - Not that sun is actually rising. So this explanation clearly gives us a clear picture, that the Verse of the Qur’an of Surah Kahf, Chapter.18, Verse No 86, is not in contradiction with established science - That is the way how people speak. He quoted Surah Furqan, Chapter. 25, Verse. 45 and 46, that… ‘The shadow lengthens and prolongates - We can make it stationary - the sun is its guide.’ And in his book he mentions… ‘Does the sun move?’ Where does this Verse say… ‘The sun moves.’ In Surah Furqan, Chapter.25, Verse. 45 and 46, does not say the sun moves. And he writes is his book… ‘We were taught in eliminatory school’ - and he said that also in his talk that… ‘It is due to the rotation of the earth, that the shadow prolongs and gets small. But what the Qur’an says… ‘The sun is its guide.’ Today, even a person who has not gone to school, knows that shadow is due to sunlight. Even a layman, who has not gone to school, knows that shadow is due to sunlight. So Qur’an is perfectly right - It does not say the sun moves and the shadow is caused. He is putting his own words in the Qur’an. The Sun is its guide - It is guiding the shadow - Without sunlight, you cannot have shadow. Yes, you can have shadows of the light - it is a different thing. But here it is referring to the shadow, which you see, which is moving - Prolonging and becoming short. Dr. William Campbell spoke about Solomon’s death - Surah Saba, Chapter 34, Verse 12 to 14, and said that… ‘Imagine a person standing on the stick, and he dies, and no one come to know, etc.’ here are various ways to explain - Point no 1, Solomon peace be him, he was a Prophet of God, and it can be a miracle. When Bible says that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, could give life to the dead, Jesus Christ is born of a virgin birth. Which is more difficult to imagine’ - Being born of a virgin birth, giving life to the dead… or standing on a stick for a very long time. Which is more difficult. So when God can do miracles through Jesus Christ peace is upon him, why cannot he do a miracle through Solomon Alai Salaam. Moosa Alai Salaam parted the sea. He threw a stick - stick become a snake - Bible says that… Qur’an says that. So when God can do that, why cannot God let a man rest for a long period? Any way I have give him various different answers - No where does the Qur’an say that Sulaiman Alai salaam rested on the stick for a very long period - No where does it say. It just says that… animal…. May be some say… ‘Ant’… may be other animal of the earth came and bit - May be possible. May be, that Sulaiman alai salaam was just dead, and any animal may have shook the stick, and Sulaiman alai salaam may have fallen down. But I assume - I use the conflict approach with the Qur’an - because irrespective whether you use the conflict approach or the concordance approach, the ayat I quoted in the beginning of my talk Surah Nisa, Chapter 4 Verse, 82, says… (Arabic)… ‘Do they not consider the Qur’an with care?’ Had it been from anyone besides Allah, there would have been many contradictions.’ Irrespective, whether you use the conflict approach or the concordance approach, if your logical, is you will not be able to take out a single Verse of the Qur’an, which is contradicting - neither a single verse which is against established science.
I agree with Dr. William Campbell, that Sulaiman Alai Salaam stayed for a long time. The answer is given in the same verse that after Sulaiman Alai Salaam fell down; the Jinn’s said that… ‘If we would have known that Solomon, peace be upon him died, we would not have toiled so hard.’ Indicating, that even the Jinns do not have ‘Ilm-e-gaib’ - They do not have knowledge of the unseen. Because the Jinns thought themselves to be very great - So Allah is teaching them, that even they do not have ‘Ilm-e-gaib’. Dr. William Campbell touched on ‘the production of milk’, in Surah Nahl, Chapter 16, Verse 66. The first person who told about the circulation of blood, was Ibn Nafees, 600 years after the Revelation of the Qur’an. And 400 years after Ibn Nafees, William Harvey made it common to the Western world - That is 1000 years after the Revelation of the Glorious Qur’an. The food you eat, go into the intestine, and from the intestines, the food constituents reach the various organs, via the blood stream - many a times via the portal system of liver - and it even reaches the mammary gland, which is responsible for production of the milk. And Qur’an gives this information of modern science in a nutshell in Surah Nahl, Chapter. 16, Verse. 66, where it says that… ‘Verily in the catte, is a lesson for you. We give you to drink from what is with in their body, coming from a conjunction between the constituent of the intestine and blood - milk which is pure for you to have.’ Alhamdulillah, what we came to know recently… just recently in science means 50 years back, 100 years back - Qur’an mentions this information 1400 years ago, and repeats this message in Surah Muminum, Chapter 23, Verse 21. Dr. William Campbell raised the point about… ‘Animals living in community.’ The Qur’an says in Surah Anam, Chapter 6, Verse. 38…‘We have created every animal that lives on the earth, and every bird that flies in the air, to live in communities, like you.’ And Dr. William Campbell says that… ‘You know the spider kills the mate and, the father, etc… do we kill? And the lion does that, and the elephant does that - he is talking about the behavior. The Qur’an is not referring to behavior. If Dr. William Campbell can not understand the Qur’an, that does not mean Qur’an is wrong. The Qur’an says… ‘They live in communities’ - Talking about, the animals and the birds live in-groups, in societies like the human beings - It is not talking about behavior.
And today science tells that all the animals, the birds and the living creatures of the world - they live in communities. Like the human beings means… they live together. And I did not have time to touch on all the points on embryology - I have touched on all his 8, 9 topics, which he spoke on. Embryology… I will go more in detail. The points he raised in embryology besides the one I clarified in my talk - He said that the stages of development were mentioned by Hypocrites and by Gallon, and he showed the various slides. The point to be noted - Just because someone says something, which are matching with the Qur’an, that does not mean that Qur’an has been copied from that. Suppose I make a statement… suppose, if I make a statement, which is correct, which was said by somebody else earlier - That does not mean I have copied. It may be, It may not be. To use the conflict approach with the Qur’an… ‘Yes! He copied’ - Okay fine - But lets analyze. The Qur’an does not take the things which were wrong from Hypocrites. If he would have copied, he would have copied everything - it is logical. Unless he is a scientist… ‘Okay this is correct… Oh! This is wrong I won’t copy that - This is correct, I will copy that.’ All the stages of Hypocrites, and Gallon is not the same as the Qur’an - Hypocrites and Gallon does not speak about ‘leech like substance.’ They do not speak about ‘mudgah’ at all - Where do they speak? Hypocrites and Gallon, at that time, they said that… ‘Even the women have got semen’ - who says that? - Even the Bible says that. If you read in the Bible, it is mentioned in Leviticus Chapter No.12, Verse No.1 to 12, that woman gives out seed - So actually Bible is copying from Hypocrites. And Bible says in Job… Bible says in Job, Chapter No.10, Verse No.9 and 10, that… ‘We have made the human beings from clay, like poured out milk and curdled cheese.’ Poured out milk and curdled cheese, is exact plaguerisation from Hypocrites. Why plaguerisation? - Because surely that is not the word of God - That portion is unscientific. It was said by Hypocrites and Gallon, the Greeks, that… ‘Human beings are created like curdled cheese’ - And Bible copies that exactly. But Qur’an Alhamdulillah, and if you analyze and read the books on ‘Embryology, even of Dr. Keith Moore, he said that… ‘Hypocrites and the other people like Gallon, etc, they did give a lot of thing to embryology, initially, as well as Aristotle’ - Many were right, many were wrong.’ And further he goes to says… ‘In the middle ages, or at the time of the Arabs, the Qur’an speaks about something additional.’ If it was exactly copied, why would Dr. Keith Moore in his book, give due credit to the Qur’an. He even gives due credit to Aristotle, to Hypocrites - but mentioned there… ‘Many were wrong.’ That, he does not mention with the Qur’an. That is enough proof, that Qur’an was not copied from the Greek time. Regarding ‘light of the moon.’… ‘Light of the moon’ was copied from Greeks. You will tell me that… ‘The world is spherical’ was copied from Greeks. I know the Pthogorous, the Greeks lived in 6th century B.C. who believed that the earth rotated - they believed that the sunlight was reflected. If Prophet Mohammed… Nauzubillah… copied - why did not he copy… they believed the sun was stationary - they believed the sun was the center of the universe. So why did Prophet Mohammed copy the correct thing, and delete the things that were not correct? This is sufficient proof that Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, did not copy. He goes to give a list, that from Greek to Cyriac, Cyriac to Arabic… and big research. One statement of the Qur’an is sufficient to disprove it.
The Qur’an says in Surah Ankabut, Chapter. 29, Verse No.48, that… ‘Thou was not able to recite any book before this, nor was thou able to transcribe with thy right hand.’ If it were so, the talkers of vanity would have surely doubted.’ The Prophet was an ‘ummi.’ - He was an illiterate. This factor of history is sufficient to prove that he did not plagiarize from anywhere. Enough! Imagine! Even a scientist, who is very literate, cannot do this thing. But Allah in his Divine Guidance made the last Prophet, as an ‘ummi’ - So that the talkers of vanity like people who write books against Islam, they cannot open their months. The prophet was ‘ummi.’ There are various things that I can continue speaking about the Bible. I have covered up all his arguments against Qur’an… Alhamdulillah, not a single point to prove Qur’an is against science. He has not touched on 22 points of mine. Touched on 2 - not proven. So all twenty-two yet prove, that Bible is incompatible with modern science. Point no.23 - In the field of Zoology… in the field of Zoology, it is mentioned in Leviticus, Chapter No.11 Verse No.6, that… ‘Hare is a cud chewer.’ We know that Hare, does not chew cud’ - Previously people thought by the movement of the hare. Now we know hare is not a cud chewer, neither does it have a compact mentalised stomach. It is mentioned in the Proverbs, Chapter No. 6, Verse No. 7, that… ‘Ant has got no ruler, no sear, no chief.’ Today we know that ants are sophisticated insects. They have a very good system of labour, in which they have chief, they have foreman, they have workers. They even have a queen, they have a ruler - Therefore Bible is unscientific. Further more, it is mentioned in the Bible, in Genesis, Chapter 3, Verse 14, and Isaiah Chapter 65, verse No. 25, that… ‘Serpents eat dust.’ No Geological book says ‘Serpents eat dust.’ It is mentioned in the Book of Leviticus, Chapter No.11, Verse No.20… ‘Among the abomination things, fowls with four feet - They are an abomination.’ And some scholars say that ‘fowl’ is a wrong translation of the Hebrew word ‘uff.’ In King James, it should be ‘insect’ or ‘winged creature.’ And in New International Version, it says… ‘Winged creature.’ But it says… ‘All insects which are four footed, are an abomination - They are detestful for you.’ I want to ask Dr. William Campbell… ‘Which insects have got four feet?’ Even a student, who has passed elementary school, knows that insects have got 6 feet. There is no bird in the world, there is no foul in the world, there is no insect in the worlds, which have got four feet. Furthermore there are mythical animals, and fabulous animals mentioned in the Bible, as though they exist - For example unicorn. It is mentioned in the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 34, Verse No.7, talking about unicorn as though it exists. You look open the dictionary, it says… ‘An animal which has got a horses’ body, and a horn which is only available in myths.’ My time is over - only I would like to tell, that I apologize if I have hurt the feelings of any Christians - That was not my intention. It was just a reply to Dr. William Campbell’s book, to prove that Qur’an is compatible with science. And Bible, though a portion we do consider, may be the word of God - Complete is not the word of God - It is not in conciliation. And I would like to end my talk with the quotation of the Glorious Qur’an from Surah Isra Chapter.17, Verse No.81, which says…(Arabic)… When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish. Wa Aakhrudawana Anil Hamdulillahi Rabbil Aalameen.
(Dr. Mohammed) Thank you Dr. Campbell, Dr. Zakir Naik, for your presentations, as well as the response. Lastly, we have the audience participation session, namely the Question and Answer session. To extract maximum benefit, in the limited time of 60 minutes. approximately, that we have available, we would like the following rules to be observed. Your questions should be only on the topic ‘The Qur’an and the Bible in the light of the subject of science - Questions out of the topic would not be entertained. Kindly state your question briefly and to the point - this is not a lecture time, neither a counter question time, for the questioners. Dr William Campbell and Dr. Zakir Naik should answer comprehensively, and each answer should not exceed 5 minutes. Four mikes have been provided in the auditorium for the questions from the mikes - Two next to the stage for the gents, and two in the rear of the center ailes, for the ladies. Those who would like to put forward a question to Dr. William Campbell, May kindly queue up behind the mikes on my left - Gents in the front, ladies in the rear. And those who would like to put forward a question to Dr. Zakir, may kindly line up behind the mikes on my right - Gents in the front and the ladies in the rear. I would like the audience in the balcony, to kindly excuse us. We are happy that this is a full session jam packed hall - but we would request you to kindly take the trouble to come down to the mikes, if you would like to put forward a question. Only one question at a time may be put forward - if you have a second question, you would have to line up behind again, to put forward your second question. Written question on index cards, available from the volunteers in the aisles, would be given secondary preference, after the questions on the mikes are handled by the speakers. Please write on the card to whom your question is addressed - Dr. William Campbell’ or ‘Dr. Zakir Naik’, so that they can be put in the appropriate boxes in front of you - Transparent boxes with the names ‘Dr. William Campbell’ and ‘Dr. Zakir Naik’ put on them, so that the questions could be shaken up be the co ordinators, and the speakers themselves could select the questions at random. These would be screened by the panel of the speakers, to see that they are relevant and on the topic, and okayed by the co. ordinators, to be put forward on the co ordinators mike, which the speakers would have to answer. Kindly state your name and profession, before putting forward your question. We will allow one question at a time, in a clockwise rotation, alternately addressed to each speaker. Like, Dr. Campbell… one question, Dr. Zakir Naik… the second question, then Dr. Campbell the 3rd question, and Dr. Zakir Naik the second question. I am sorry it would be a zigzag fashion, rather than a clockwise fashion - the way the mikes have been arranged by the organizers. So first question next to the stage, 2nd question next to the stage, 3rd question on my left in the rear, 4th question in the rear on my right, and so on. We would allow approximately 40 minutes for these questions, and then we switch over to the questions on the slips. May we have the first question from the mike on my left for Dr. William Campbell.
(Q) – I would like to ask Dr. Campbell if…. In Genesis, it says… when it talks about the flood, Noah’s flood - it talks about, that the water covered the surface of the earth, all the creations and all the mountains and everything, and it says that it covered the highest mountain on earth, and that was 15 cubits, which is in Arabic, 15 foot you know ‘kadam.’ So we know scientifically that the highest mountain on earth is not 15 foot - you know it is a lot higher than that - so how come that in Genesis, it says that the water covered everything, every single mountain on earth - and the highest was 15 foot?
(Dr. William Campbell) Thank you for your question - I think it is saying is that it is above the highest mountain. If the highest mountain is 3000 meters, well then high … it is 15 feet …15 foots above, it however.
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother we will not allow any questions in between - No counter questions please. Let the questioner put his question - full stop. Then the speaker gives his answer in whatever manner he chooses - Thank you.
(Dr. William Campbell) And I looked into this, in the Qur’an - I think it actually would be understood to be in the same way. Because it says in Surah 11 Verse 40… ‘The fountains of the earth gushed forth and the waves like mountains.’ And then it says in the places where it gives a list of prophets - there is no prophet before Noah. And so I know Adam could be a Prophet, but I am…. So no where is it listed. And I think that it says in the Qur’an too, that the whole world was covered.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes brother, question for Dr. Zakir Naik - Could the volunteer kindly put the mike down?
(Q) Dr. Zakir, you said that there is a…
(Dr. Mohammed) Excuse me, Excuse me…. The second question would come from the mike on my right, for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Okay you said that Allah reflects light and…. He is made of Nur - I did not really understand that.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother posed a question - he did not understand my explanation to the counter argument of Dr. William Campbell, regarding ‘Nur’ and ‘Allah.’ The Qur’an says in Surah Nur, Chapter 24, Verse No. 35, that Allah is ‘Nurus samaavaati wal ardh’ ‘is the light’ of the heavens and the earth – He is a light. The meaning of ‘light’ in the Qur’an - it is ‘reflected light’ or borrowed light. So he is asking… ‘Does it mean that even Allah has got borrowed light?’ So the answer is given further, if you read the Verse - it says that it is like a parable of a nitche - In the nitche there is a lamp. Lamp has a light of its own. That means, Allah has light of its own, as well as that light of its own, is also being reflected. The light of Allah Subhnawataala is again being reflected by Allah Subhanawataala himself, like a halogen lamp that you see here - It has a tube in between. The lamp you can refer to that, as a ‘Siraj’ or a ‘Wahaj’ or a ‘Dia.’ And the reflector as ‘Munir’ or ‘Nur’, borrowed light or ‘reflection of light.’ And further more, but natural this light - actually does not refer to the physical light you are talking about - It is a spiritual light of Allah Subhnawataala - But as an answer I have given to Dr. William Campbell. And since I have got 5 minutes, I would like to utilize it. Dr. William Campbell gave a reply to Noah Alai Salaam - I am a person who use the concordance approach with the Bible, and conflict approach the Qur’an, because both ways Alhamdullilah, Qur’an will pass the test. And even if I agree with Dr. William Campbell, and I agree with him - it is right, that it was 15 feet above the highest mountain. But it is mentioned in Genesis, Chapter No 7, Verse No 19 and 20, that… ‘The full world was submerged under water.’ And further more, archeological evidence show us today - and the time. Of Noah’s time if you calculate by Genealogy, it comes to in the 21st to 22nd century B.C. Archeological evidence show us today, that the 3rd Dynasty of Babylon, and 11th Dynasty of Egypt, were present at the 21st and 22nd century B.C. and there was no evidence of flood - and they remained uninterrupted. Therefore, Archeological evidence show us, that it is impossible that the earth was submerged - the full earth was submerged under water, in the 21st, 22nd century B.C. What about the Qur’an?… What about the Qur’an? Point no 1 – Qur’an does not give a date - whether 21st Century B.C. or 50th century B.C. – no date. Point no 2 – No where does the Qur’an say - the full world was submerged under water. It speaks about Noah Alai Salaam and his Qaum… and his people - A small group of people, or maybe a large group of people. Archeological evidences tell today - and the Archeologists they say, that… ‘We have no objection – it is possible that parts of the world was submerged under water - but full world, its not possible.’ So Alhamdulillah, the Qur’an is matching with the latest discoveries in Archeology, but the Bible does not. Further more, if you read Genesis, Chapter No 6, Verse No. 15 and 16, it speaks about Almighty God, telling Noah Alai Salaam, that build an ark - and it gives the length, 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits in breadth, and height 30 cubit. Cubit is 1 and a half feet - The brother made a mistake - it is one and a half feet. And the New International Version - it says… 450 feet in length, and 75 feet in breadth, and approximately 45 feet in height - It is 30 cubit in height. If you measure this… I have done the calculation - it comes too less then 150 thousand cubic feet in volume and area wise 33,750. And the Bible says there were 3 floors - Ground floor, 1st storey, and 2nd storey. So multiply by 3, you get an answer of 101 thousand, 250 square feet - That is the area. Imagine a pair of all the species of the world, was accommodated in 101 thousand, 250 square feet. Imagine! Is it possible? …Millions of species are there in the world? If I tell… ‘In this auditorium… one million people came in this auditorium’- Will you believe? I remember, I think last year, I had given a talk in Kerala - and there were 1 million people - that is the biggest gathering I have addressed, Alhamdulillah by Allah’s grace. 1 million people! I could not see the end - It was not an auditorium - it was a big beach. I could not see any one - Only few people in the front - That is all. Few… compared to the one million people that were there. If you see on the videocassette, you will realize how big is one million – Somewhat like Arafat - you see 2 ½ million people in Arafat. In a area of 101 thousand, 250 square feet, or 150 thousand cubit feet, it is impossible - and above that they stayed for 40 days eating, going for call of nature. If say…‘1 million people came in this auditorium’ - Will you believe? So scientifically, there are several things, in which there are gross scientific errors in the Bible.
(Dr. Mohammed) Can we have the next question for Dr. Campbell, from the mike at the rear ?
(Q) Dr. Naik, you said that…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) No… No…. Excuse me - This question is for Dr. Campbell, so you have to wait.
(Dr. Mohammed) So the next person would like to ask a question to Dr. Campbell.
(Q) Yes! I would like to pose this question or rather this test, to Dr. William Campbell. Why do not you attempt the falsification test of the Bible, given in the book of Mark, Chapter. 16, Verses 17 and 18, and prove to the audience here, right now, that you are a true Christian believer?
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I do not agree with Dr. Naik’s interpretation. God… Jesus himself was tempted, and the devil said… ‘Well, if you are the Son of God, throw yourself off the temple.’ And Jesus said… ‘You will not tempt the Lord, your God. And so if I was this day and say… ‘Oh yes… I am going to be sure, and do a miracle in front of you’ - I would be tempting God. My friend Harry Rancliff - he had promised to go, and so he decided to keep his promise, and trust God to do His will.
It is a different situation - I will not tempt God.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Question for Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) May we have the question in the rear, from the sister ?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) She is for Dr. Naik, or Campbell ?
(Dr. Mohammed) At the back.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Do you have a question for Dr. Naik at the back, ladies?
(Q) Yes… okay my question is for Dr. Zakir Naik. The Christians explain the concept of trinity, scientifically by giving the example of water, which can be in 3 states - solid, liquid and gas, in the form of ice water and vapour. Similarly, one God is a triune God – Father, son and Holy Ghost. Is this explanation scientifically correct?
(Dr. Zakir) Just a comment, before I give the answer - We should not tempt God… we should not test God - But here, we are not testing God, we are testing the human being. We should not test God - But here we are testing you, and God promises that any believer, who has deadly poison, he will not die - he will be able to speak in foreign tongues. We are not testing God - we know God is correct - He will see to it that every believer can speak. We are testing you, whether you are a believer or not Coming to the question of the sister, that there are Christians who say that scientifically we can prove the concept of trinity - like how water can be in 3 states solid, liquid and gas… like ice, water and vapour, so similarly, we know God is in 3 forms father, son and holy ghost. How to reply - and is this scientifically correct ?
Scientifically, I do agree water can be in 3 forms solid, liquid and gas… Ice, water and vapour. But scientifically, we also know that the component of water remains the same. H2O - 2 atoms of hydrogen, and one atom of oxygen. The components remain the same; the constituents remain the same - the forms keep on changing; there is no problem. Let us check with the concept of ‘trinity’- Concept of trinity – Father, son, and holy ghost – Form… they say… ‘Form changes.’ Okay for the sake of argument, we agree. Does the component change? God and holy Ghost are made of spirit - Human beings are made of flesh and bones - They are not the same. Human beings require to eat - God does not require to eat, to survive - They are not the same. And this is testified by Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, himself in the Gospel of Luke, Chapter No. 24, Verse No. 36 to 39. He says that… ‘Behold my hands and feet - Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ He says… ‘Behold my hands and feet - Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ And he gave his hands, and they saw, and they were overjoyed. And he said that… ‘Do you have any meat to eat ?’ And they gave him broiled fish and a piece of honeycomb - And he ate. To prove what? That he was God? To prove that he was not God. He ate, and he is flesh and bones - A spirit has got no flesh and bones. This proves that it is scientifically not possible that Father, son and Holy Ghost - Father, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, and Holy Ghost, is Almighty God. And the concept of ‘trinity’, - the word ‘trinity’ does not exist anywhere in the Bible. The word trinity is not there in the Bible - But it is there in the Qur’an. Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 171, it says…. (Arabic)…. Do not say trinity…. (Arabic)…desist stop it! It is better for you.’ Trinity is also there in Surah Maidah, Chapter No.5, Verse No.73, which says …(Arabic)… They are doing ‘Kufr’ - They are blaspheming - those who say that Allah in 3 in one - Is a triune God. Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never said he was God - The concept of trinity does not exist in the Bible. The only verse which is closest to the concept of ‘trinity’, is the 1st Epistle of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.7, which says… ‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the word and the holy ghost, and these 3 are one. But if you read the Revised Standard Version, revised by 32 scholars… Christian scholars, of the highest eminence, backed by 50 different co-operative denominations, they say… ‘This verse of the Bible - 1st Epistle of John, Chapter 5 Verse No.7 is an interpolation, is a concoction, is a fabrication’ - It was thrown out of the Bible. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed Divinity. There is not a single unequivocal statement in the complete Bible, where Jesus Christ peace be upon him says… ‘I am God’ - or where he says… ‘Worship me’. Infect if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the Gospel of John, Chapter No.14, Verse No.28 - he said…‘My Father is greater than I’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.10, Verse No.29…‘My Father is greater than all’; Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.12, Verse No.28…‘I cast out devils with the spirit of God’; Gospel of Luke, Chapter No.11, Verse No.20…‘I with the finger of God, cast out devil’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.30… ‘I can of my own self do nothing’…‘I can of my own self do nothing - As I hear, I judge and my judgement is just, for I seek not my own will, but the will of my Father.’ Anyone who says… ‘Not my will but God’s will’ - he is a Muslim. Muslim means the person who submits his’ will to almighty God. Jesus Christ peace be upon him said…‘Not my will but God’s will.’ He was a Muslim - and he was Alhamdulillah, one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe…We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention. We believe he gave life to the dead, with God’s permission. We believe that he healed those born blind, and lepers with God’s permission. We respect Jesus Christ peace be upon him, as one of the mightiest messenger of God. But he is not God, and he is not a part of the trinity - Trinity does not exist. Qur’an says…. (Arabic)… ‘Say He is Allah, one and only.’
(Dr. Mohammed) Before we have the next question from the mike have - earlier I had announced that the ladies should kindly queue up there. Unfortunately they have not queued up there - so we are having a problem of balancing the questions. Okay what we do, we disregard the labels on the mike - If the ladies want to ask from here, we will allow them. Just balance this in practical necessity the hall is jam packed, we understand. We will allow now, one question for Dr. Campbell from here - And the rear mike will be for people who would like to ask questions from the gents, for Dr. Zakir. Similarly for the ladies, the front mike would be for Dr. William Campbell -and the rear mike would be for Dr. Zakir. Are the people queued there… for Dr. Zakir? – Yes. People queued here… for Dr. Campbell? Right. I think they have taken their own positions and changed the positions the organizers had given. We respect it, because of the rush in the hall. Next question for Dr. Campbell, from this mike - Thank you - Yes brother.
(Q) As Salaamu alaikum - Alhamdulillah tonight has been… praise be to Allah, Praise be to the one God, of all mankind – Tonight has been a very interesting dialogue - and a dialogue at that, talking about a very noble topic for mankind, for all mankind, and so we have gathered here….
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Question… question please.
(Q) Okay – Bismillah… In the name of Allah.
The question is this – Okay, we have come here together for this event tonight - It should benefit us. And so I am asking Dr. Campbell - As a Christian and with your colleagues as well, has this event done its job - Has it opened your heart. Has it at least opened the glimmer, towards looking further into the truth of Islam?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you.
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I think I will use the last question to answer yours.
Dr. Naik says… ‘There is no place where Jesus says he is God.’ In Mark 14:61, He did not answer - and again the high priest was questioning him, and saying to him… ‘Are you the Christ, the son of the Blessed One?’ In other words… ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of God ?’ And Jesus said… ‘I am.’ So he did say…‘I am the Son of God, and he did say… ‘he is Divine.’ And the Bible clearly says. I realize he has quoted the verses, he wished to quote - Dr. Naik wished to quote, where Jesus was in his human form. But there is other verses, he says… ‘I and the Father are one.’ It says… ‘In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. And God was made flesh, and dwelt among us.’ In Jesus’ baptism, the Father spoke and said… ‘This is my beloved son.’ Jesus was there and the Holy Spirit descended - The Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. We did not make this thing up from one heads. Just …a little thing - and now my friend asked the question here… ‘We have learned many things’, and I am always willing to learn. But I still think, that the 500 witnesses that saw Jesus after he rose from the dead, have more power with me, than Mohammed coming 600 years later as one witness - Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) We will allow a question for Dr. Zakir from the rear - Yes sister.
(Q) Dr. Campbell did first attempt to bring up supposed false facts pertaining to the Qur’anic views on the universe - and you did refute these accusations. However… was not addressed, what the Bible says about the shape of the earth, and those other aspects.
(Dr. Zakir) Sister asked the question that I did not address, regarding what the Bible says about the shape of the earth - due to lack of time - I can point out another 100 points - lack of time. Anyhow, sister wants to know what the Bible speaks about shape of the earth. It is mentioned in the Bible, in the Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.4, Verse No.8, it says - the same reference which Dr. William Campbell used about tempting… ‘The devil took him… that is Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, to an exceedingly high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the earth and its glory. Gospel of Luke Chapter No.4, Verse No.5…‘The devil took him to a high mountain and showed him the glory of all the kingdoms of the world.’ Now, even if you go to the tallest mountain, the highest mountain in the world… that is Mount Everest, and supposingly, you have a very good vision, and can see for thousands of miles together - Yet, you will not be able to see all the kingdoms of the world - Because today we know, the earth is spherical. You will not be able to see the kingdom, of the opposite side of the world. The only way you will be able to see, if the earth was flat. That is the description what the Bible gives…‘The earth is flat.’ Further more, this same description is repeated in the book of Daniel, Chapter No.4, Verse No.10 and 11. It says… ‘In a dream, that the tree grew up into the heaven, and there when the tree grew up into the heaven, it grew up so much, that every one from all the ends of the earth, they could see the tree. This is only possible, if the shape of the earth was flat. If a tree is very long and the shape of the earth was flat it is possible. Today it is a universal fact that the world is spherical - You will never be able to see the tree, however much long it is, from the opposite side of the spherical shape of the earth. Further more if you read, it is mentioned in the 1st Chronicles, Chapter No.16, Verse No.30, that… ‘The earth does not move.’ The same is repeated in the book of Psalms, Chapter No.93, Verse No.1, that… ‘Almighty God has stabilized the earth.’ - That means the earth does not move. And in the New International Version, it says that… ‘God has established and stopped the movement of the earth as though…’
(Samuel Nomaan) One minute.
(Dr. Zakir) One minute left or one minute.
(Samuel Nomaan) - One minute left.
(Dr. Zakir) I thought you are asking me to wait for one minute.
Regarding Dr. William Campbell - he said that Jesus Christ peace be upon him said in the Bible in several places, that… ‘He was God’. You can refer to my videocassette ‘Concept of God in major Religions’, which gives all the references and the answers. I will only give you the references of what he quoted…‘I and my Father are one’ is from John, Chapter No 10, Verse No 30. And ‘In the beginning was the word’ is from John Chapter No. 1, Verse No. 1. You go to the context, and you will come to know Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed Divinity. You can take my cassette, which is available at the foyer outside - ‘Concept of God in major Religions’, and ‘Similarities between Islam and Christianity’, which gives the details, that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed divinity. (Dr. Mohammed) The next question from the lady in the front, for Dr. William.
(Q) You mentioned the test, where a true believer can drink poison, and survive, because of their faith. What about …Resputin, who was poisoned with enough cyanide, killed 16 people and when that did not kill him - he died of blood loss. He was not a good Christian - He had all this. How do you explain this? Well, only a good Christian can drink this poison and live - how do you explain that?
(Dr. William Campbell) Well I do not feel I have to explain it. I mean if Resputin was not a Christian - Well what happened to him has no basis for what happened in the Bible. I said before… Jesus… God did not intend for us to line up here, and start taking poisons, and sees whether he is the true God. Oh sorry! It were not to test God. That was given that these…God said that…these things will happen. An example would be Paul - he went to… when he was shipwrecked - then he… I think it is Creep, but I have the wrong place in my mind - and he landed. And so he was throwing wood in the fire and a snake bit him - Nothing happened to him. But he was not trying to test God - he was trying to throw wood on the fire. It is a different situation.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) No comment please - Thank you.
(Dr. Mohammed) The next question from the rear, for Dr. Zakir Naik.
(Dr. William Campbell) Excuse … Excuse me…
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes brother.
(Dr. William Campbell) Excuse me sir.
(Dr. Mohammed) Sorry, carry on.
(Dr. William Campbell) I would just like to say about the circle of the earth. In Isaiah 40:22, it says…‘He, God, sits enthroned above the circle of the earth.’
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes Brother - for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Dr. Zakir, you said there is not any mistake in Qur’an. I see more than 20 mistakes in Arabic grammar, and I will tell you some of them. …(Arabic)… He said in Baqara. And Al-Haj… … (Arabic)…. Which is right, Assabeun or Assabreen - Number 1. Number 2, you said…
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother, one question at a time… Please.
(Q) Of the same thing, he said in Surah Taha, 63….(Arabic) …. Mistake! …. Arabic…. Can you explain that? And there is more than that mistake.
(Dr. Mohammed) Brother we will allow your only... the first part of the question. The second part we will not allow, because we had stated - we will allow one question at a time, so others get a chance too.
(Q) Okay, Okay.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother has asked a very good question. I would like to be more concordance - and agreeing, he has mentioned all 20 grammatical points. And the book he is referring to, by Abdul Faadi… Abdul Faadi correct? - Is the Qur’an infallible? … I can see something… ya... Alhamdulillah my eyesight is good.
I will answer all 20 together, because I have read the book - I will answer all 20, Insha Allah… Insha Allah. Point No. 1 brother… Point No.1… Point No. 1 to be noted - that all Arabic grammar is taken from the Qur’an. Qur’an was the highest Arabic book - A book which has the maximum level of highest literature. All the Arabic grammar has been derived from the Qur’an. Qur’an is the textbook of grammar. Since Qur’an is the textbook of grammar, and all the grammar is derived from the Qur’an, the Qur’an can never have a mistake - Point No.1. Point No. 2… Point No. 2… Point No. 2 - It is like, you know... taking a ruler, and the ruler is there… has a measurement, and your saying the measurement is wrong - It sounds illogical. Point No. 2 - In the different tribes of Arabia, and you know Arabic, and Dr. William Campbell also will agree with me… In different Arabic tribes, the grammar keeps on changing. In some Arabic tribe, the word is feminine; the same word is even masculine in the other tribe. Same word in different tribes - the grammar keeps or changing - Even the gender keeps on changing. So will you check Qur’an, with that faulty grammar? - No! And further more, the eloquence of Qur’an is so high - It is so high, it is far superior. And you know there are various books - On the Internet you go, 12 grammatical mistakes, 21 grammatical mistakes - Abdul Faadi – 20 grammatical mistakes. Do you think the Christian people took out these mistakes? Who took out these mistakes? - Do you know who took out? The Muslims! The Muslim scholars like Zamak Sharif - what they did - that the Qur’an grammar is so high, that it goes against the conventional use of the Arabic. The Qur’an grammar is so high - To prove the Qur’anic grammar was high, they gave examples. And I will give you a couple of examples, which will answer all his 20 questions. They gave the example - like we read in the Qur’an, it says that… ‘The people of Lut Alaihis salaam, they rejected all the messengers.’ ‘They rejected the messengers’… it is mentioned. Dr. William Campbell said… ‘The people of Noah - they rejected the messengers.’ We know from history that there was only one messenger sent to them - So it has a grammatical mistake. Qur’an should have said - The people rejected the ‘messenger’ not ‘messengers.’ I agree with you - with layman grammar like how you and I know, it may be a mistake. But if you read the books written by Arabs - What is the beauty of the Qur’an? The beauty of the Qur’an is - Why does the Qur’an refer ‘messengers’, instead of ‘messenger’? You know why? Because we know that the basic message of all the messengers, was same - That there is one God - About Tawheed - About Allah Subhanawataala. By mentioning, the people of Lut alaihis salaam… the people of Noah, rejected the messenger - It says, by rejecting Lut alahis salaam, they are indirectly rejecting all the messengers.’
See the beauty, see the eloquence… Alhamdulillah! You may think it is a mistake - It is not a mistake. Similarly, people like Anis Shorrosh says, that Qur’an says…‘Qun fa ya Qun…Be and it is’ - It should be ‘Qun fa qaana’ - ‘Be’ and it was. Agreed - Past tense is Qun fa Qaana in Arabic – it is not Qun fa ya Qun. But the Qun fa ya Qun is more superior - It says… Allah - it was, it is, and can do - Past, present and future.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) May we have the next question from the brother in the front, for Dr. William Campbell.
(Q) Dr. Campbell, this is a very sincere question - to learn a little more about Christianity. I want to ask that Jesus’ Ministry was only for 3 years, after he was baptized by John the Baptist. So Jesus, the second most powerful person, after God… the son of God - what are his contribution in his early life from first - one year to say 27 or 28 years - What are his significant contributions?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) This is … excuse me Dr. Campbell, this is not… this is not the topic for tonight - We have, we had…
(Q) In the beginning of the presentation Dr. Campbell mentioned Zulqarnain, from the Chapter 18, of Qur’an, ‘The Cave’ - and he mentioned that, Zulqarnain is Alexander the great. Can you prove me, how you came to that - Zulqarnain is Alexander the great?
(Dr. William Campbell) I only read it in the commentary of Yusuf Ali. But regardless of whether it is Alexander the great, or who it is, the sun does not set in a murky – marsh, and that is what the verse says.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes sister, the question for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) I do not know the exact verse, but the Bible says… ‘When Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man, be for 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.’ Did Jesus peace be upon him, scientifically fulfill the sign of Jonah ?
(Dr. Zakir) What the sister is referring to, is the verse of the Bible, Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No 12, Verse No. 38 and 40, when people asked Jesus Christ peace be upon him… ‘Show me a sign, show me a miracle’. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, says… ‘You evil and adulterations generation, seeketh after a sign, no sign shall be given to you, but the sign of Jonah. For as Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the son of man be 3 days and 3 nights, in the heart of the earth’ - Sign of Jonah. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, puts all his eggs in one basket. And if you go to the sign of Jonah… the book of Jonah is less than 2 pages, and most of us know. And if you analyze, that Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights - but Jesus Christ peace be upon him, we know from the Gospels, that he was put on the cross - the alleged crucification - alleged. By late evening, he was brought down from the cross and put in a sepulchre - And on Sunday morning if you see, the stone is moved away, and the sepulchre is completely empty. So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, is in the tomb, on Friday night - Friday night, he was in the tomb… Friday night.’ He was there in Saturday morning, one day, one night, one day. And he was there Saturday night - so two nights and one day - two nights. And Sunday morning the tomb was empty. So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, was there for two nights, and one day - It is not 3 days and 3 nights. Dr. William Campbell gives the reply in his book, that… ‘You know, part of the day can be counted as one day – And if a patient comes to me, who is sick on Saturday night - on Monday morning, and if I ask him… ‘How long are you sick for ? ’ He will say… ‘ 3 days.’ I agree with you - Concordance approach, I agree - I am very generous. You say part of the day, is full day - I agree with you. So Saturday night, part of the day - one day. Sunday, part of the day, full day – one – good. Monday part of the day full day - no problem. If patient says… ‘3 days’ - No objection. But no patient will ever say… ‘3 days and 3 nights.’ I challenge. I have Alhamdulillah, met various patients - I have not come across a single patient, including Christian missionaries, who have ever told to me - who were sick in the night, day before yesterday, saying… ‘I am sick for 3 days, 3 nights.’ So Jesus Christ peace be upon him, did not say… ‘3 days’ - Jesus Christ peace be upon him said… ‘3 days and 3 nights.’ So it is a mathematical error – Scientifically, Jesus Christ peace be upon him, did not prove. And further more, the prophecy says… ‘As Jonah was, so shall the son of man be.’ Jonah was - How? How was Jonah in the belly of the Whale?… Belly of the fish… Dead or alive? Alive - When he was thrown over board, he was alive. In the belly of the whale, he goes around the ocean, dead or alive? - Alive. He prays to Almighty God... dead or alive ? - Alive! He is vomited out on the seashore - Dead of alive? Alive, alive, alive, alive. When I ask the Christians… ‘How was Jesus Christ peace be upon him, in the sepulchre… in the tomb - Dead of alive ?’ They tell me… ‘Dead.’
‘Alive?’ - Alhamdulillah! - Is it a Christian? If he is alive, Alhamdulillah he was not crucified - If he is dead, he has not fulfilled the sign. You can refer to my video cassette ‘Was Jesus Christ peace be upon him really crucified ?’ – I have proved that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified. As the Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse No. 157… (Arabic) … ‘They did not kill him, neither did they crucify him - It was only made to appear so.’
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) Doctor…. Question for Doctor William.
(Q) Doctor Campbell, since you are a medical doctor, could you please explain scientifically, the various medical aspects that are in the Bible, regarding…. Because you did not answer them in your rebuttal. For example, blood used as a disinfectant, bitter water test for adultery, and most importantly, that the woman is unclean for double the period, when she gives birth to a daughter, than as compared to a son?
(Dr. William Campbell) Thank you for the question, and I will get to it - But Dr. Naik keeps getting the questions that should come to the Christian. It says that… ‘On the next day when it was one, after the preparation, the Chief Priest and the Phrases gathered together with Pilot. And said… ‘Sir, we remember that when he was still alive, that he had said: After 3 days I am to rise again - Therefore give waters, for the grave to be made secure, until the 3rd day. So they are using these words, interchangeably. As far as I am concerned, all of these word… ‘The 3rd day, after the 3rd day, equal what happened with Jesus in the grave - The other thing is and then, his resurrection. There is one other thing - When Jesus was arrested, on Thursday night…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Please be quiet - This is not going to work like this - Please be patient.
(Dr. William Campbell) Thursday, and Thursday after… When he was arrested, he said… ‘My hour has come.’ And so I counted that 3 days and 3 nights. Now you have asked me about these places in the Bible - I believe the Bible was written by God, and I believe that God put them in there. So it is not up to me to explain what God said - But I believe that God put those things in his Bible. (Dr. Mohammed) Now we will have the last question on the mike, from the brothers at the back, for Dr. Zakir - then we start the questions on index cards. That is the last question, as per one-time limitations please - for Dr. Zakir.
(Q) Salaam alaikum - My name is Aslam Rauf - And I am a student studying Biology right now. And my teacher is teaching me… Evolution now - And I was wondering about the Islamic answer to ‘Evolution’ right now. If you could explain briefly - What Islam says on the topic of ‘evolution’ and creationism.
(Dr. Zakir) The brother has asked a question. Just as Dr. William Campbell is taking the liberty to answer, even I will take the liberty. No where in the Qur’an is the name of ‘Alexander’ mentioned - It says ‘Zulqarnain’… not ‘Alexander.’ If some commentator has made a mistake, it is a mistake in the commentary - The men have made the mistake - Not the word of God. Regarding the Bible, saying that…‘the world’…in Isaiah, ‘is a circle.’ No problem - It says… ‘Circle’, not spherical.
So one place Bible says… ‘Flat’- one place it says... ‘Circle.’ If you agree with both the verses, it becomes like a disk. See - Does it look like the earth? It is circle, and it is flat - This is not the earth.
Regarding Biology in the Qur’an, and regarding ‘evolution’ - two questions the brother asked. I do not know whether I can answer both or not - I do not mind.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Any one.
(Dr. Zakir) Which one? First one, or second one? – Biology? Or evolution?
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Evolution will be good.
(Dr. Zakir) Are you choosing or he is choosing.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Because he had asked the question for evolution - I think it will be good.
(Dr. Zakir) Two questions - Biology first, and then evolution. If you give me 10 minutes I will answer both.
(Dr. Mohammed) Only in 5 minutes, whatever you can do.
(Dr. Zakir) Okay fine - I agree with the chairperson Mr. Samuel Naaman – I will answer on evolution. The exact answer, you can refer to my video cassette – ‘Qur’an and Modern Science.’ Regarding when you talk about evolution, you start thinking about Darwin’s theory. And Darwin went on his ship - at ‘H.M.H. Bugle’ to an island by the name of ‘calatropis’ and he saw birds pecking at niches. Based on that observation that the beaks of the birds became long and short, he propounded the natural selection. But he wrote a letter to his friend Thomas Thompton, in 19th century - He said that… ‘I do not have proof to propound my natural selection but because it helped me in classification of embryology, of rudimentary organs, I put forth this.’ Darwin’s theory is not a fact at all - It is only a theory. And I made it very clear in the beginning of my talk… ‘Qur’an can go against theories’, because theories take U-turns - But Qur’an will not go against any established fact. And in our school we are taught about Darwin’s theory, as though it is a fact .its not a fact. There is no scientific proof at all – ‘there are missing links.’ Therefore if someone has to insult his friend, his colleague, he will say… ‘If you were present at Darwin’s time, Darwin’s theory would have been proved right – insinuating, he looks like an ape. There are missing links with Darwin’s theory. And I know about the four fossils that are present - the Hominoids - the Lucy. Orthalopetians, with its guide, the Homoeructus, Naindertolman, and Cromageron – For details, refer to my videocassette. By molecular Biology, according to Hansis Cray, he said it is impossible that we can be evolved from apes, by DNA coding - it is impossible. You can refer to my videocassette - It gives the details. Some parts I have no objection. Regarding biology, Qur’an says in Surah Ambiya, Chapter 21, Verse No. 30, … Arabic… ‘We have created every living thing from water - Will you not then believe ?’ Today we know that every living creature - The basic substance… the cell contains cytoplasm, which has about 90% water. Every living creature in the world has approximately 50 to 90 % water. Imagine… in the deserts of Arabia, who could have imagined, that every thing is made of water ? Qur’an says that 14 hundred years ago. In the field of…
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Time - Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Zakir) Thank you.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you very much.
(Dr. Mohammed) We would now start the questions on slips of paper. We would have this box for Dr. William Campbell - this box for Dr. Zakir Naik. We turn the boxes - their name towards themselves, so they do not see through, while you will can see. They pick up the questions, looking away from the box, and they answer it themselves – ‘Whatever they have choose, they to answer. The first question for Dr. William Campbell, and next the question for Dr. Zakir. They can pick up the questions in advance so that we won’t … do not waste time, in their reading the questions. So one – one questions you can start - and we will allow Dr. William to read for some time if he wants. There is the first question.
(Dr. William Campbell) I will read the question - but first I just want to say about… ‘Everything made of water.’ It is perfectly obvious - Every time you smash a bug - It is made of water. Every living being is made of water - But it is observable – It is not a miracle.
(Qtn... Dr. Campbell) Okay Dr. Campbell, if you cannot answer the contradictions in Genesis, regarding the creation - Do not you think that proves that the Bible is unscientific, and therefore not from God ?
(Ans... Dr. Campbell) I admit that I have some problems with this - but I also have all the fulfilled prophecies - and that is very important to me. And it says that… Jesus is the corner stone, and built on a... he is built on a foundation of the apostles, and the Prophets - and so the Prophets prophesied, and the Apostles wrote down, when God fulfilled the prophecy. I know that does not answer your question - But my faith…. is in Christ - for as my savior.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Okay, thank you - Dr. Naik.
(Qtn... Dr. Zakir) ‘Text’ and ‘translations’ are two different words, giving two different meanings in the Bible - in English, ‘a text’ or ‘a translation.’ Cannot... scientifically text and translation be proved to be the one and the same ? Did God reveal His messages upon Moses and Jesus peace be upon them, in English ? It is a very good question - Can the text and the translation be the same ? No! A ‘text’ and ‘translation’ cannot be exactly the same – Can come close to it. And according to Maulana Abdul Majid Dariabadi, he said the most difficult book in the world to translate, is the Glorious Qur’an. Because the language of the Qur’an is so eloquent, it, is so superior, so noble - And one word in Arabic, has got several meanings. Therefore to translate the Qur’an, is the most difficult - It is not the same. And if there is a mistake in the translation, it is a human handiwork - the human being who is translating - he is to blame, not Almighty God. Regarding - Was Bible revealed in English? No! - Bible was not revealed in English - It is Old Testament in Hebrew, New Testament in Greek. Though Jesus Christ peace be upon him, spoke Hebrew - But the original Manuscript that you have – it is in Greek. The Old Testament, the original Hebrew is not available - do you know that? The Hebrew translation of the Old Testament is from the Greek - So even the original Old Testament, which is in Hebrew, is not present in Hebrew. So you have a double problem - No wonder you have scribal errors, etc. But the Qur’an–Alhamdulillah, the original Arabic is maintained. It has been… Alhamdulillah scientifically - you can prove it is the same. And regarding - Were Revelations revealed to Jesus Christ peace be upon him, and to Moses peace be upon him. I said in my earlier answers as well as my talk, that we believe the Qur’an says in Surah Al-Rad, Chapter. 13, Verse 38, that Allah Subhanawataala has sent down several Revelations. By name only 4 are mentioned - The Torah the Zaboor, the Injeel and the Qur’an. The Torah is the Wahi, which was given to Moses, peace be upon him. The Zaboor is the Revelation, the Wahi which was given to David, peace be upon him. Injeel is the Revelation, Wahi which was given to Jesus, peace be upon him. And Qur’an is the last and final Revelation which was given to the last and final Messenger, Prophet Mohammed, may peace be upon him.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Time, Dr. Naik - Thank you so much.
(Dr. Zakir) But the present Bible is not the Injeel, which we believe in, which, was revealed to Jesus Christ peace be upon him.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you Sir - Dr. Campbell.
(Dr. Campbell) But the present Injeel is the one as always been. We have…. We have texts - 75 percent of the texts from 180 A.D - That is 100 years after John wrote. He was - He was alive, and wrote. You have people alive at that point, who knew - who their… grandparents believed, through John. That is good evidence, and good text - The Bible is valid history. Now the question - With the probability you presented - It is a great calculation - Thank you. But in the matter of God, it is completely inferior. God is All Powerful, and can choose who he likes.’ – Off course No matter rich or poor, or any other thing - so how then does you probability fit in? Jesus was poor - he was chosen - He said… ‘The son of man, has no where to lay his head.’ I am not sure about this – I do not see how the calculation is talking about that. Calculation was - how many people could… fulfill all those prophecies? I hope that is been helpful - Thank you.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you... Dr. Naik, go ahead - please go ahead - Thank you.
(Qtn... Dr. Zakir) To an effort to prove… in an effort to prove, the Qur’an is so heavily agreeable to modern science - what happens if modern science is wrong?... Does the Qur’an always change, to reflect the changes in science? That is a very good question - It is a very important question. And we Muslims should be very careful while being compatible with the Qur’an and modern science. Therefore I said in the beginning of my talk - I will only be speaking about those scientific facts, which have been established. And a scientific fact, which has been established - for example, the earth is spherical - It can never go wrong. Established science can never take U-turns. But unestablished science like hypothesis and theories can take U-turns. I know Muslim scholars, who have tried to prove Darwin’s theory, from the Qur’an. Nonsense! So therefore, we should not go overboard, and try and prove everything of modern science. We have to be careful to check up whether it is established, or unestablished. If it is established, Alhamdulillah, with scientific proof, the Qur’an will never go against it. If it is hypothesis, it may be right, it may be wrong. Like ‘Big Bang’ theory - It was a hypothesis earlier - Earlier it was a hypothesis. Today after solid proof about the celestial matter… according to Steven Hawkins, etc., it is a fact. So Big Bang theory, today is a fact - Yesterday if was a hypothesis - Once it becomes a fact, I use it. You know there are hypothesis saying that… ‘Human beings have been created from a single pair of genes’ - Adam and Eve. I do not use it, because science has not established. It goes along with the Qur’an. It goes along with the Qur’an, that we have been evolved from one pair Adam and Eve, peace be upon them - But I do not use it, because that is not an established fact. So therefore, while bringing a co-relation between Qur’an and science, etc., see to it that you use only those scientific facts which have been established… and not hypothesis - because Qur’an is far superior to modern science. I am not trying to prove the Qur’an to be the word of God, with the help of science – No, not at all. What I am trying to do - For us Muslims, Qur’an is the ultimate criteria - For the Atheist and for the Non Muslims maybe, science may be the ultimate criteria. I am using the criteria… the yard stick of the Atheist, and comparing with the yard stick of the Muslims - The Qur’an. I am not trying to prove the Qur’an to be the word of God, with the help of science. What I am trying to do, when I bring a compatibility, and I show the superiority Qur’an ? - That what your science has told us yesterday... Qur’an has told us 14 hundred years ago. I am trying to prove that our yard stick… the Muslim yardstick… the Qur’an, is far superior to your yard stick - The science. Therefore, you should believe in Qur’an, which is far superior - Hope that answers the question.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you Dr. Naik.
(Dr. Mohammed) Yes, Dr. Campbell.
(Mr. Samuel Noman) This is the last.
(Dr. Mohammed) Excuse me - Last two questions for the speakers.
We will ask the audience to just bear for us, for a few minutes more We have the last question on the slip for Dr. Campbell, followed by one last question for Dr. Zakir - and we will ask you to please wait till the end.
(Qtn... Dr. William Campbell) It is the same question as the last one, really. Dr. Campbell agreed to Dr. Naik, that the errors he showed are not wrong, and that he cannot answer them. So does this mean that Dr. Campbell agrees that the Bible has errors - So it is not the word of God ?
(Ans... Dr. William Campbell) There are things in the Bible, that I cannot explain - that I do not have an answer for now. And I am willing to wait, until I see whether an answer comes. There are many places where archeological things have proved, that the Bible is true - talking about towns, and who is king, and things like that - And I think there is great proof, that the Bible is valid in good history.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Campbell.
(Qtn... Dr. Zakir) The question is... ‘Are there any more mathematical contradictions in the Bible ?’ What is this... Bible or Islam ?... Sorry. Are there any more mathematical contradictions in Islam? Are there any more? - Is it Bible or Islam? - I do not know – I will answer both. Because… ‘Is there any more ?’ - It should be Bible, because I spoke about contradictions. Anyway regarding Islam - the Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter 4, Verse No.82…. (Arabic)…. ‘Do they not consider the Qur’an with care? - Had it been from anyone besides Allah, there would have been many contradictions.’ There is not a single. Regarding more contradictions in the Bible - five minutes will be insufficient - Even if they give me 5 days, its difficult. Any way I will just mention a few. It is mentioned in the 2nd Kings, Chapter No.8, Verse No.26, it says that… ‘Ahezia… that Ahezia, he was 22 years old, when he began to reign.’ 2nd Chronicles, Chapter No. 22, Verse No. 2, says that… ‘He was 42 years old, when he began to reign. Was he 22 years old, or was he 42 years old? - Mathematical contradiction. Further more, in 2nd Chronicles, Chapter No. 21, Verse No. 20, it says that… ‘Joaram, the father of Ahezia, he reigned at the age of 32 - and he reigned for 8 years, and he died at the age of 40. Immediately… Ahezia became the next ruler at the age of 42. Father died at the age of 40 - Immediately son takes over, who is at the age of 42. How can a son, be two years older than the father?’ Believe me even... even in Hollywood film, you will not be able to produce it.
In Hollywood film, you can produce a ‘unicorn’ which I mentioned in my talk. Unicorn… you can have Coccrodyasis, which the Bible speaks about, Concrodyasis and dragons and serpents. But in Hollywood you cannot even show a son, being two years older than the father. It cannot even be a miracle - Even in miracles; it is not possible – Impossible. In miracle, you can have a person being born of a virgin birth – but in miracle you cannot have a son being older than the father, by 2 years. Further if you read – it is mentioned in the Bible, in 2nd Samuel Chapter No 24, Verse No 9, that… ‘The people that were involved in the battlefield. It gives a list of these people, in 2nd Samuel, Chapter 24, Verse No. 9, and it says that… ‘People that took part 800 thousand of the men of Israel, took part - and 500 thousand of the men of Judah same.’ If you see other places, 1st Chronicle, Chapter 21, Verse No. 5, it says that… ‘1 million - Hundred thousand people took part in the battle field, from the men of Israel - and ten thousand four hundred and sixty men took part of Judah.’ Was it 800 thousand people who took part from the men of Israel, or was it 1 million - 100 thousand? Was it 5 lakh people of Judah that took part or 10,460? A clear-cut contradiction. Further more, it is mentioned in the Bible in 2nd Samuel, Chapter No. 6, Verse No 23, that… ‘Michael the daughter of Saul - she had no sons’ - 2nd Samuel’, Chapter 21, Verse No. 8… ‘Michael the daughter of Saul had 5 sons.’ One place it says… ‘No children, no son, no daughter’ - Other place… ‘5 sons.’ Further more if you read, it is mentioned in Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No. 1, Verse No. 16 - it says about the genealogy of Jesus Christ peace be upon him - as well as Luke Chapter No. 3, Verse No. 23, and it says that… Jesus’ father, that is Joseph - his father was Jacob’ – Mathew, Chapter 1, Verse 16. And Luke, Chapter No 3, Verse No 23… Jesus’ father… Joseph - his father was Hailey. Did Jesus’ father… Joseph, had two fathers ? What do you call a person who has got two fathers ? Or was it Hailey - or was it Jacob ? Clear-cut contradiction.
(Mr. Samuel Nomaan) Thank you, Dr. Naik, Thank you very much.
(Dr. Mohammed) Can we ... can we have you bear with us for 2 minutes ? We have the renowned, international Islamic scholar amongst us... Dr. Jamal Badawi - and on behalf of the Islamic Research Foundation, we feel it an honour, if he would take the pleasure of inaugurating or releasing the book just written by Dr. Zakir Naik - ‘The Quran and Modern Science – Compatible or Incompatible’ Dr. Jamal Badawi to release the book, which has just recently been published and printed few days back - and being released here in Chicago, on this appropriate occasion.
(Dr. Jamal Badawi) There is no more fitting way, as a gesture of friendship, than to ask Dr. Zakir to give it to Dr. Campbell, by himself.
(Dr. Mohammed) As we have a very limited number of these copies available - so we request only the Non Muslim guests who have come here, to kindly take a complimentary copy of the book, as they leave the auditorium, if they are interested - It would be a pleasure.’ May I call upon Dr. Sabeel Ahmed, to present the vote of thanks.
(Dr. Sabeel Ahmed) Again on behalf of Islamic Circle of North America, I would really thank all of you for your patience, and all our distinguished guests over here, for giving up a very good performance for all of us. …. (Arabic)….